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Don't want to debate this one. I think you are living in a utopian = world. Kind of hard for the average dive boat six pack (35 ft long) to have a = chase boat and the surface support you talk about. Remember, we don't have = the dive industry of say Florida where there are tons of boats and they are = big. Up here there usually is the captain and a mate or 2. Add in 6 divers = with 2 sets of doubles plus stages and the scene starts to get a little = crowded. The Jersey Up-line does not have to have sisal, mine doesn't. My = up-line stores very neatly and is easy to deploy. Try putting =BC line on a = dinky little 5" cave or wreck reel. Heck, I don't think you'd be able to fit = 250' of 1/8"stuff either, now we're back to the 1/16th stuff. Now if you = say you don't need this much line then you're not going to far with it as a penetration line. Oh my God, now we need 2 again! :-) Ever try bringing up a 275 block and tackle and controlling it while = you come up the line and deco with it? We're not talking about a 25 = porthole here. Heck I'd probably just stick that sucker it in my bag, attach it = to my crotch D-Ring and carry it up. Bigger items like hatches and such require different methods and taking it up with you would be nuts! Honestly, one of the main reasons for tying the artifact into the wreck = is should the bag dump, you can go back down and hopefully follow the = up-line and retrieve the artifact and bag. Not everyone has a Halcyon closed = bag. Heck last time we used one of these it filled with about 1/16 water. = Need to figure that one out..... I guess I must really be a Jersey diver. I've done the buoy thing in Florida before. I found that when the surface current is running at a different speed/direction than the bottom it was not a pleasant dive. Besides, what do you do when you go inside a wreck? Having the buoy bouncing along the roof silting everything up would not be a good idea....... Just being sarcastic! Again, you're forgetting the shipping lanes. Container ships routinely = come within =BD mile of the dive boat, or closer. Then we're forgetting the fishing boats..... Strong current and your in their props within 15-30 minutes. A chase boat is fine but if you can tie into the wreck and = not float off, why isn't this optimal? I think you're trying to ram the = way you dive into an environment where it's isn't optimal. I don't think = you're going to be able to convince me that drifting, with or without a chase = boat is safer and less stress full than hanging from an up-line secured to a = 100 lift bag. =20 Here's a question that I really don't know the answer to (not being sarcastic). In YOUR environment, when the chase boat goes out to get = you, what do they do? Do they tow you back or just hang out with you? I = assume they can't hang out with you since other divers are popping up all over = the place. Plus we're forgetting the ships, now you have an 800 foot = container ship going 18 knots baring down on the diver on the bag and another in = the dingy. Towing back doesn't seem pleasant either. 2 knot current away = from the boat and the tow boat pulling you at say another 2 knots, that's a = 4 knot current to hang from. Doesn't seem too pleasant to me. Again, = I'd rather tie in to the wreck and just hang from the 2 knot current. If = there was a stronger current like say 5 knots we would just not dive. Art. -----Original Message----- From: Sean T. Stevenson [mailto:ststev@un*.co*] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 9:09 PM To: Paltz, Art; techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line There is more to a successful technical diving venture than just competent divers. Effective planning and competent surface support personnel are mandatory. The lift bag is not intended to be chased down by a ship, but rather by the (mandatory) chase boat, while the primary vessel remains at anchor. A competent boat crew comes in handy here. Deco is not exclusively done adrift. Planned drift dives actually make use of a towed float ball, so the live boat can follow the divers at all times. The reel and lift bag for deco is just a contingency. There really is no reason to tie into a wreck for an ascent. (For some reason, NY/NJ divers seem to feel more comfortable when they're tied to something. Hmmm, that could go to explaining the bondage wings..., but I digress.) On wrecks, ordinarily the ascent and deco is performed along the anchor line, unless strong current warrants shooting a bag to do a drifting deco, or if you return to the anchor line to find it is not there, you shoot the bag. Your surface personnel should be aware of their position and if their anchor is dragging, and have responded accordingly. They should have the chase boat ready and lookouts posted to spot your bag. Sound excessive?=20 Then you are not diving with adequate surface support. As Jim mentioned, the biodegradeable sisal line that is typically employed on the Jersey uplines has a tendency to become weak and fail at the worst possible time - in an emergency. Braided nylon line or equivalent is a better choice. If 1/16 is unsuitable for the environment, such as in wrecks, then use larger or more durable line - just put it on a well designed reel instead of the Jersey spool. The reel is used for laying line during a penetration, and for deploying a bag if necessary. One tool for two functions - starting to make sense? The reel also allows deployment with one hand only, leaving one hand free to deal with emergencies. It stows easily and cleanly, and is deployable in seconds. For raising artifacts, why not just tend the bag, keeping a controlled rate of ascent (with you) instead of tying it in and sending it rocketing to the surface. Just hand it off to support divers at a deco stop. You are diving with shallow support divers, aren't you?=20 Better yet, leave the damned wrecks alone so others can enjoy. Just a thought. -Sean On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:09:28 -0400, Paltz, Art wrote: >Sean, > >I think one of the reasons you don't see them used is because the divers are >doing drift diving. At least for NY and NJ the reason we have so many great >wrecks in one concentrated spot is because this area is the entrance to NY >and Newark/Elizabeth harbors. Thinking that an approaching ship is going to >be able to see your dinky lift bag or sausage is nuts. The dive boars >anchor into the wreck site. Drifting means the boat's got to pick you up. >Very difficult to do when the boats got other divers in the water. > >A container ship hit Ambrose Light tower a few years back. It stands out of >the water about 150 feet and is probably 75 foot by 75 foot at the base >(probably bigger). If you think they'll see a free floating bag and worry >about it you'd be fish food. > >Using a wreck reel with 1/16 inch line on it won't really cut it either. We >regularly send up artifacts on bags and tie them into the wreck with wreck >or cave line and about 50% of the time we end up chasing the bag down cause >the line has been cut on the wreck. I don't know about the wrecks in your >area but in the NE they are all rusty and sharp. It's easily cuts through >thin line quickly. > >Some say always use a wreck reel and tie in near the anchor line. This is >also a good option assuming that a). the anchor line will be there when you >return and b). your wreck line won't accidentally be cut. Anchors come >dislodged from the wreck even if they are tied in or have permanent >moorings. I've also seen divers get tangled in others wreck line and >instead of waiting for their buddy to untangle them they whip out the knife >and cut it. This naturally poses a problem to the diver expecting the wreck >line to lead them back to the anchor line. I have in this situation re-tied >the persons wreck line. > >Not bashing just giving the reasoning for carrying an up-reel of some type. >I really don't want to start up another "Jersey Up-Reel" thread. This one >was tiresome last time. > >Art. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean T. Stevenson [mailto:ststev@un*.co*] > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 1:41 AM > To: goindown@be*.ne* > Cc: George Irvine; Jim Cobb; techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: Re: Jersey Up Line > > I can't tell if this is a tongue in cheek sarcastic reply or >if this > guy really didn't get the joke. If it is the latter case, >might I > suggest quitting diving and taking up golf... > > Chris, seriously... these upline reels are completely >unnecessary.=20 > I'm guessing you are diving on the Atlantic coast? Take a >look at how > everyone else in the world does this and ask yourself why >you do not > see these upline reels used anywhere else. > > -Sean > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:18:55 -0400, Chris Gregory wrote: > > >Would that same buddy be there to retrieve it should you >need to shoot a > >bag, and if he's not available what are the "DIR" >alternatives? > >Chris > > > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > =09 -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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