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Not sure if this will make it to techdiver, but... I am interested in this thought of stiffness with deeper dives. In my discussions with my instructor (who's done a few deep dives, some somewhat long ones, too ;-) during my mix course, he talked about how pressure in general can make you joints and muscles sore, which sometimes makes people a little paranoid about dcs symptoms. This would certainly go along with what I feel, but if this were the case, would the commercial divers doing really deep stuff be in really bad shape, or are their decompressions so long, that the symptoms/inflammatin subside during that time? Does equilateral pressure (water pressure) put pressure on joints and muscles in a fashion that causes some sort of inflammation? What about you WKPP guys doing the long bottom times, do you get general soreness (I know ibuprofin is used a bit, too) on longer dives, or is depth the main factor, not time. At 10:45 AM 8/22/1999 -1000, you wrote: >I'm not going to argue with you. You can believe whatever you want. When I >first started doing deep heliox dives, I wasn't sure if it was physiology of >psychology (=fear). I've done it enough times now, and have discussed it >with others who have done it enough times now, that the "fear" explanation >just doesn't hold water. 70% helium is about right - I use a mix of 70% >helium, 20% nitrogen and 10% oxygen, and that seems good to about 380 or so. >Below 380, my head is relatively clear, but my muscles start to stiffen a >bit. This isn't obvious - it's subtle. You might not even notice it if you >didn't need high muscular finesse to accomplish a task (such as capturing >fishes), but it's definitely there, and it's definitely not "fear". Either, >as you say, you've given up deep diving and will no longer be a player, or >you will try a bunch to deep heliox dives and will eventually come back and >tell us something similar to what you said below: > >"My 'fear' statement was pure bullshit, and I think we can all see that >now." > >Aloha, >Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*] > > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 2:22 AM > > To: William M. Smithers > > Cc: Richard Pyle; TechDiver > > Subject: Re: Helium willies- leaning from the past > > > > > > No, it was fear. The next dive we did screwed up so badly that Casey > > quit diving. I called the "jitters" dive after 3500 feet, and the next > > dive we all ran out of gas three times - not too cool. Everyone was > > fumbling with the bottles. After that we jacked the helium. > > > > In fact, when Casey came back, he thought we were still diving the lower > > helium mixes and higher oxygen. > > > > JJ, Bill Mee and some of the others are actually diving pure heliox now > > . I do not have a booster, so I am at the 70-80% zone running backed off > > pressures in my rebreather supply bottles and my back tanks. > > > > We looked at all of the possibilities of what was going on with us, and > > came to the conclusion that we needed to add more margin for error to > > the dives to reduce the fear and add more helium to increase the clarity > > and improve the deco results. > > > > I did some dives nine years ago, like when Gavin aned I put the end in > > the Turner Sink syphon, where I intentionally used high nitrogen to calm > > me down ( dove 15X40 ), but all it did was cause me to slow way down and > > have screwups, like losing my pencils and lights and compass while > > surveying, dropping them from my hand and never knowing it . > > > > We were diving just the two of us with no support, no backup scooters, > > no safties, diving to thirds in a raging syphon at 295 on the roof > > adding line. We got out of the water with no gas to our names. This is > > the kind of thing that got Gavin and others to quit this sport. > > > > I changed all of that in the last few years, have done some several > > hundred of these dives the easy way now, and can tell you that after > > several hundred deep wreck and ocean dives and several hundred extreme > > cave dives, it is feer, not "willies", and nitrogen is bullshit of the > > worst order. Now we come back wtih full backtanks. > > > > Now we take away anything from the dive that is a concen and replace it > > with more backup, do it right, and love it. > > > > Will, I am not afraid to think out loud, learn and progress. I stand in > > stark contrast to eveyone else who fails to really go out and learn > > anything. I do not need to take it to the point of a death to change, > > and have actively done so for the last few years. > > > > My "willies" statement was pure bullshit , and I think we can all see > > that now. We have this down to paint-by-nunmbers at WKPP, and we are > > still trying to improve it and learn more. > > > > You will note that you never saw me ever recommmend any of the insanity > > we did in the past, and in fact Gavin said that if I ever told anyone > > about any of our personal dives, he would deny it. The problem was the > > he and I were bad company for each other when there was line on the reel > > and open cave in front of us. The reality is that we are both here by > > the Grace of God only, and we both owe it to everyone else to tell the > > truth and show how it really should be done. Also, the caves are so long > > now that our past bullshit would not cut it . > > > > Now we "walk down and ( do) them all", so to speak. > > > > William M. Smithers wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Richard Pyle wrote: > > > > > Will, this effect is called "fear" - what more of these > > guys need - not > > > > > pre hpns. It comes from the sudden realization that you are doing > > > > > something very stupid, and then the environment becomes > > more facinating > > > > > than the fear. > > > > > > > > Ah ha! Just as I suspected. You've never actually done a deep heliox > > > > dive, have you....? Just try a few - especially with fast descents. > > > > You'll come around. > > > > > > Who knows, but here's the quote I was thinking of - from Sept. 3, 1997 > > > > > > ltgmirvine@sa*.ne* <George Irvine> wrote: > > > > narcosis in that case. That side may be easier to explain that the > > > > helium jitters. Otherwise, Casey told me I was acting jittery > > on a dive > > > > that was routine and easy, so maybe it is there for real. > > > > > > -Will > > > > > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. ---------------------------------- Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*> NW Labor Systems, Inc http://www.nwls.com Who is John Galt? ---------------------------------- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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