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Susan, I would hope that when you dive in the ocean you do so off of a drift float line or an anchor line. In the case of a drift float you can knot the line every ten feet and in the case of an anchor line you can mark the depth and estimate your real depth by correcting for the scope (if you are that picayune). Neither of these options requires any artifice other than common sense Unless you are spacially challenged I would think that it is pretty easy to reference approximate distances on a line from the surface. Anyhow, for the sorts of exposures you can reasonably be expected to encounter in the ocean most of your deco is from 50 ft on and the times are not that critical (unless you have a pfo or you are an HFS in which case you shouldn't be diving in the first place). As for risk management, I never cease to be amazed by the lack of judgement and foresight related to thinking through the risks of tethered and untethered deep water diving. Considering through the eventualities in the first place and thinking about your response to the myriad situations that can occur is the real challenge to ocean diving. Avoiding stupid high risk situations, knowing when when to hold em and when to fold em and above all not diving to "prove something" to your peers or yourself is the real mark of a pro. Best wishes, Bill Mee -----Original Message----- From: susan m. innes <premier@ma*.ac*.ne*> To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Redundant Equipment and Hogarthian >>Susan, >> >>If taking an extra bottom timer with you, while diving in the ocean, makes >>you feel better than do it. Still, this is equivalent to throwing turtle >>bones over your left shoulder or taking along a good luck charm in your >>pocket. The real problem here is that you are responding to the fear >>associated with decompression and the bottom timer gives you an added sense >>of security. Clearly, taking along an extra bottom timer is no different >>than wearing a dive watch. So what? > > > >Can a watch give you the depth? > > > > >>It comes back around to the fact that ocean diving is far more dangerous and >>unpredictable than cave diving. You should not subject yourself to >>exposures requiring major decompression and even the remore risk of having >>to be "rescued" from a CF. Deep ocean dives, involving drift decompression, >>where there is essentially no bottom underneath you, are very dangerous. > >> >Bill I agree. But I would say that a cave dive at 285' for 4 hrs on staged >scooters using your own tables is probably more dangerous. It is all a >matter of risk managment. > > > > >The three fatalities in West Palm Beach, which we still have not recovered, >>and the Jane Orenstein tragedy all involved the lack of an "underneath" >>(versus an overhead) environment. In the Palm Beach case, the self rescue >>and buddy assised rescue failed and in the Jane case, there was no self >>rescue or buddy attempted rescue despite the fact that the means for self >>rescue were more or less there. > > >I thought from what I have read that overweighting was a major factor in >these fatalities. This is something their instructors should have covered. >That would be a major part of your self rescue. > > >> >>I will not dive solo anymore, nor will any of my colleagues. As for so >>called "self rescue" there is no such thing and you are rolliing the dice if >>you think that you can save yourself from a CF in a dangerous situation. The >>point is you don't want ever be in a situation where a rescue becomes >>necessary; however should such a crisis arise this is where your buddy as >>part of your life support system is invaluable. > >Bill I have never advocated solo diving. I have never lost a buddy (knock on >wood) but I have known some who did. Why not be ready for the uncertainty. >Can you say that you absolutely know you won't loose your buddy, or how he >would react? >Self rescue is a state of mind as well as technique. >A BT is about the same as a watch, so why is it a problem? >Regards >susan > >> >>Best wishes, >> >>Bill >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: susan m. innes <premier@ma*.ac*.ne*> >>To: Chris Werner <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*> >>Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:34 PM >>Subject: Re: Redundant Equipment and Hogarthian >> >> >>>Chris, >>> >>>Do you take the DIR raft which comes with the DIR package from Halcyon in >>>the cave?? or do you MODIFY the rig for cave or do you deviate from the >>>published and advertised DIR gear and not take it with you in the cave or >>ocean? >>> >>>For the record, DIR and George are responsible for teaching me alot and for >>>reconfiguring my gear as were many others. Taking a second bottom timer in >>>the ocean which is unobtrusive and my decision since I'm the one going in >>>the water doesn't mean I don't subscribe to DIR philosophy just as those >>who >>>do not take their raft in the cave or ocean are not necessarily throwing >>>away ALL DIR philsophy. Just as those who used an extra belt buckle to hold >>>their cannister in place weren't strokes. They saw a need and addressed it >>>FOR THEM. If you don't want to take an extra bottom timer that's fine for >>>you. I respect and understand your decision but I don't concur in it. >>> >>>Naturally, you always want to be with your buddy, but my opinion is a self >>>rescue is the best rescue and I will plan to have a buddy and to manage a >>>self rescue, if possible. >>> >>>susan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Why would you ever keep changing gear config. to suit differing >>conditions? >>>>Go with what works in all environments. The fact that you think you are >>fine >>>>tuning DIR is ridiculous. Hogarth is not DIR, it was a stage in the >>>>evolution. Dive Hogarth (or what you think Hogarth is) for all I care. I'm >>>>telling you what works everywhere with no modifications. DIR works and has >>>>never been proven not to. It was developed in the ocean, refined in the >>>>cave, and put to use in the extreme environment of the Woodville Karst >>>>Plain. It works in extreme cold (Baltic Sea Tech Divers) and in warm >>water. >>>>If you were really analyzing the benefits you can only come to one >>>>conclusion: DIR WORKS. >>>> >>>>Chris >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: <bigvon@be*.ne*> >>>>To: Chris Werner <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*> >>>>Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 5:05 PM >>>>Subject: Re: Redundant Equipment and Hogarthian >>>> >>>> >>>>> It is not a matter of old school or stubbornness. it's analyzing >>benefits >>>>> versus risks >>>>> Again, no one seems to accept that someone can dive hogarthian and not >>>>accept >>>>> every single edict from the DIR most recent statement. Is a seven foot >>>>hose >>>>> better than a five foot hose in the ocean if no penetration is involved >>>>and >>>>> light is not an issue? >>>>> >>>>> In fact if you look at the first DIR tape and the second, most recent >>one, >>>>> innovations were introduced such as "allowing" divers to use the extra >>>>belt >>>>> buckle to hold their canister in place. Some divers were doing this >>>>before the >>>>> second video - were they 'stroke" before the video and "not stroke" >>after >>>>the >>>>> video. Were they closed minded, old school before the video and not >>>>> afterwards? >>>>> >>>>> One can dive using a redundant bottom timer and still be hogarthian, >>have >>>>a >>>>> "good" diving attitude and an open mind. >>>>> >>>>> A bottom timer gives you depth and time in one compact unit. Those of >>you >>>>> using extra casio watches do not have a back up depth device. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris Werner wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> > >>>>> > There is no difference. The difference is in your inability to realize >>>>that >>>>> > DIR works everywhere. The reason you can't get it is that you are old >>>>> > school, stubborn, and lack an open mind. >>>>> > >>>>> > Chris >>>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> >> >> >> > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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