Jess,
I'm sure your convinced of the validity of your posts.
However, there is not a snowballs chance in hell that you go through more
gas (of any kind) than several guys who dive several days a week and
weekends too year round.
No matter how you do the math. You may SPEND more money on gas, you may
SPEND MORE TIME dispensing gas, yes, those would be the correct terms.
You would definitely have me beat there.
Its been a couple of years since the station was moved to Lamars, with many
improvements.
Bitchy ?? I thought you liked to play this game, I simply called your bluff.
So call and up the ante, or we'll have to call it a night.
No in-laws, we shipped the kids (hers and mine) to the respective ex's and
it's four days of UNWEDDED bliss.
No, bitchy doesn't work in this situation.
Dell Motes
Dive Rite
117 W.Washington St.
Lake City, Fla. 32055
www.Dive-Rite.com





-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
To: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>; Case E. Harris <diveman@cy*.co*>;
techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)


>I stand by my posts.  I can mix as efficiently and more cost effectively
>without the Haskel.
>
>I also stand by my opinion that I go through more gas than any one person
>that uses your bank, unless of course you have really started letting the
>hooves in there.
>
>I have used the old D-R setup when it was at Marks.  Unless the banks were
>up, it was damn slow.  Maybe it has been improved, but I find that hard to
>believe.
>
>Fianally, why so bitchy?  In-laws in for the holidays?
>
>Trout
>
>----------
>> From: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
>> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Case E. Harris
><diveman@cy*.co*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
>> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 12:01 PM
>>
>> Trout,
>> I would like to see you bank several thousand cubic feet of Nitrox by
>> cascading off your 2250 O2 bottles. And then mix again off these same
>> bottles when your banks are down. This I would really like to see. Call
>> Lamar and tell him you have a sure fire way for him to premix, since the
>> station is at his house (I guarantee he dives many times over what you
>do,
>> and none of it is on air). Average of 8- large O2 bottles a week,  for
>> several users, a couple of bottles of helium when needed. Thats just for
>our
>> personal use, we don't sell it.
>> Oh but I forgot, you only dive deeper than 250 and Nitrox is just a
>weanie
>> deco gas.
>> Give me a break, sport, your far, make that very far, from the only guy
>on
>> the playing field. In fact, from what I've read and heard, your second
>> string.
>> The haskel affords all kinds of flexibility, and maybe you only deal with
>> "one scuba tank at a time", where as we do not. A membrane works fine for
>a
>> limited application, the Haskel suits us much better for the whole range
>> from Tri-mix to Nitrox to O2. There are many guys who use our air
>station,
>> all of which dive more than you. So you go ahead and continue changing
>> bottles and turning valves, we've got more important things to do.
>> BTW, I don't make commission on anything, I'm not in sales and I don't
>> recall telling anybody to buy a Dive Rite Haskel. In fact, 99 percent on
>> this list probably didn't know we had Haskels, (judging from the
>responses I
>> got AFTER you pointed that out) so once again, you've done all the work
>for
>> me. Maybe I should send you a commission. We distribute Haskels to help
>our
>> dealers, along with access to filters and such or we point them to
>someone
>> who can help.
>> Sounds like you failed to set up right in the first place, oh well,
>better
>> luck next time.
>> Dell Motes
>> Dive Rite
>> 117 W.Washington St.
>> Lake City, Fla. 32055
>> www.Dive-Rite.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>> To: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>; Case E. Harris
><diveman@cy*.co*>;
>> techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:11 AM
>> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
>>
>>
>> >Ok, let me get this straight.  I should buy a Haskel ($4000), then a 2
>> >stage lp compressor in the 30 cfm range ($2500) to get the last 200 psi
>of
>> >gas out of a bottle or to get more than 2600 of a gas into a scuba tank.
>> >Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world.
>> >
>> >Dell, I doubt there are many individuals that go thru more gas in a year
>> >than I do.  The only others would be the guys I dive with, and none of
>us
>> >use Haskels.  Of course, none of us makes a commision selling them
>either.
>> >
>> >What am I missing here?
>> >
>> >Trout
>> >
>> >----------
>> >> From: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
>> >> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Case E. Harris
>> ><diveman@cy*.co*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
>> >> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 7:13 AM
>> >>
>> >> With all due respect, bullshit back to ya. You coined it yourself, "if
>> >you
>> >> don't use it wisely".
>> >> We drive our haskel with a two stage, high volume, low pressure
>> >compressor,
>> >> thus not burning up valuable, filtered drive air. I think you should
>have
>> >> spent some of that money you claimed to have spent on gear on setting
>up
>> >an
>> >> air station correctly.
>> >> We also run a small heater on it in the winter, to totally prevent
>freeze
>> >> up.
>> >> DIR applies to more than just your gear configuration.
>> >> Your welcome.
>> >> Dell Motes
>> >> Dive Rite
>> >> 117 W.Washington St.
>> >> Lake City, Fla. 32055
>> >> www.Dive-Rite.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>> >> To: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>; Case E. Harris
>> ><diveman@cy*.co*>;
>> >> techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 2:24 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >With all due respect, bullshit.
>> >> >
>> >> >Haskels are neat, but Haskels will eat your shorts finacially if you
>> >don't
>> >> >use them wisely.  Once the delta between source gas (the big o2
>bottle,
>> >for
>> >> >example) and the destination bottle (your scuba tank) becomes greater
>> >than
>> >> >about a grand, you are spending too much money on drive gas (low
>> >pressure,
>> >> >but high volume gas, usually air, drives a Haskel).  Also, they
>become
>> >less
>> >> >efficient as the source bottle (the big o2 bottle) pressure drops, so
>if
>> >> >you are using them to get the last dregs from a bottle before you
>take
>> >it
>> >> >back, you are going to get clobbered paying for the drive gas.
>> >> >
>> >> >In summary,  they are ideal for going from say, 2640 to 3000, but
>they
>> >suck
>> >> >going from say 1000 to 3000 or 200 to 1000.
>> >> >
>> >> >Trout
>> >> >Former owner and operator of a Dive Rite sold Haskel boast pump,
>thank
>> >you
>> >> >very much.
>> >> >
>> >> >----------
>> >> >> From: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
>> >> >> To: Case E. Harris <diveman@cy*.co*>; Jesse Armantrout
>> >> ><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
>> >> >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 12:07 PM
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think Joel is just pointing out what an invaluable tool a haskel
>can
>> >> >be.
>> >> >> If you've ever used one that is set up with a gas manifold for
>mixing,
>> >> >> you'll kick yourself in the butt for not buying one sooner. We
>seldom
>> >> >boost
>> >> >> O2 higher than about 2600 and occasionally I'll boost to 3000, BUT
>> >that
>> >> >is
>> >> >> with keeping things nice and cool. 3000 seems to be the unwritten
>> >> >> threshhold, and it just doesn't seem necessary most of the time.We
>> >have a
>> >> >> high performance filter in line that we cool with water, and just
>use
>> >> >common
>> >> >> sense. We bank 32% and air, and then with the haskel you can mix up
>> >> >whatever
>> >> >> you're heart desires with NO HASSLE, just switch the supply gas and
>> >purge
>> >> >> the line. I've pumped out enough doubles of tri-mix and 2 deco gas
>> >mixes
>> >> >for
>> >> >> up to 16 people in less than a few hours with zero mistakes and no
>> >wasted
>> >> >> gas. I wouldn't trade the Haskel for anything, it makes it
>incredibly
>> >> >fast
>> >> >> and pays for itself quickly (especially if you use it on a daily
>> >basis)
>> >> >in
>> >> >> gas savings alone.
>> >> >> Regards,
>> >> >> Dell Motes
>> >> >> Dive Rite
>> >> >> 117 W.Washington St.
>> >> >> Lake City, Fla. 32055
>> >> >> www.Dive-Rite.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: Case E. Harris <diveman@cy*.co*>
>> >> >> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
>> >> >techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> >> >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 1:19 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Divers-
>> >> >> >This raises an interesting question in my mind, and perhaps the
>list
>> >as
>> >> >> >a whole can shed some light for me... I've been around people who
>do
>> >> >> >Haskell Oxygen...AL bottles full to 3000psi, and I've had a rather
>> >well
>> >> >> >thought of blender/tech tell me he's afraid of O2 higher than
>about
>> >2400
>> >> >> >psi.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I would like to hear the opinions of anyone out as to the safety
>of
>> >> >> >boosting O2. Does everyone just fill to 2250?  I understand why
>one
>> >> >> >wouldn't fill to 3000 w/o a booster, but is it really that
>dangerous
>> >to
>> >> >> >fill higher?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Joel? NAUI doesn't say much on this...what's your opinion?
>> >> >> >Tom? IANTD's view?
>> >> >> >George? What is the WKPP standard for high pressure O2?
>> >> >> >Anyone else? what's the standard in other parts of the world?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Thanks...
>> >> >> >-Case
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Jesse Armantrout wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> maybe this one is common sense, but I've not seen it posted
>> >before...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Another reason for liking 100% is that when I turn a bottle on
>and
>> >see
>> >> >> 3000
>> >> >> >> psi, I know that isn't oxygen. (I don't Haskel o2)  This gives
>me a
>> >> >warn
>> >> >> >> fuzzy feeling.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Trout
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ----------
>> >> >> >> > From: Nanci LeVake <nlevake@pi*.co*>
>> >> >> >> > To: Joel Silverstein <joelsilverstein@wo*.at*.ne*>;
>> >> >> >> gwaw@ix*.ne*.co*
>> >> >> >> > Cc: Techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: 80% arrrgh!! was Re: On the left
>> >> >> >> > Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:36 PM
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Arnie,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Something Joel forgot to mention is that if you need O2 for a
>> >> >medical
>> >> >> >> > emergency, and you are using 100% O2 for deco, you already
>have
>> >the
>> >> >> right
>> >> >> >> > gas there with you.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Nanci
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > At 10:14 AM 11/23/98 -0500, Joel Silverstein wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >Dear Arnie,
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >It is quite easy to pump 100% oxygen to 3000 psi -- the dive
>> >shop
>> >> >> needs
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> > >make the investment in a proper oxygen service rated Haskel
>Gas
>> >> >> booster.
>> >> >> >> > >Most any reputable dive center who is mixing gas for the
>> >consumer
>> >> >> should
>> >> >> >> > >have one, anyone that does not should step up pet the pony
>and
>> >buy
>> >> >> one.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >80% EAN was not created from a decompression standpoint it
>was
>> >> >> justified
>> >> >> >> by
>> >> >> >> > >those who did not have a gas booster. Here's why. Oxygen gets
>> >> >> delivered
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> > >2400 psi bottles, (some major cities have gas suppliers who
>can
>> >> >supply
>> >> >> >> at
>> >> >> >> > >3500 psi) however you can cascade into a 3000 psi rated
>cylinder
>> >> >about
>> >> >> >> 2250
>> >> >> >> > >psi of oxygen top up to 3k with air and you have 80% oxygen
>> >> >content.
>> >> >> >> Simple
>> >> >> >> > >enough.  However .......
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >80% EAN limits you severely. 1. at 20 and 10 fsw its PPO2  is
>> >too
>> >> >low
>> >> >> >> make
>> >> >> >> > >it useful, at 40 fsw its too high for maximum exposure
>limits.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >10 fsw 1.04 po2  too low
>> >> >> >> > >20 fsw 1.28 po2  too low
>> >> >> >> > >30 fsw 1.53 po2  borderline
>> >> >> >> > >40 fsw 1.77 po2  too high
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >Where as 100% oxygen is
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >10 fsw 1.30 po2
>> >> >> >> > >20 fsw 1.61 po2
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >(with the 10 fsw stop normally being taken at 20 fsw
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >Advocates of the EAN80 (a/k/a stroke mix) have come up with a
>> >> >variety
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> > >reasons to justify not using 100% oxygen --- one of the great
>> >ones
>> >> >is
>> >> >> >> "its
>> >> >> >> > >good for divers who have trouble holding buoyancy at 10 and
>20
>> >fsw"
>> >> >> >> > >frankly if a technical diver cant hold a 20 fsw stop --- they
>> >> >should
>> >> >> go
>> >> >> >> > >bowling and get the hell out of the water.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >Most divers who are using accelerated decompression tables
>have
>> >> >> >> > >standardized on their decompression mixes.  (some are finding
>> >that
>> >> >> >> > >hyperoxginated heliox mixes are working well too though that
>is
>> >> >beyond
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> > >scope of this email)
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >EAN 36 from 110 fsw
>> >> >> >> > >EAN 50 from 70 fsw
>> >> >> >> > >100% oxygen from 20 fsw
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >Granted when you run one of the consumer dive profiling
>> >softwares
>> >> >you
>> >> >> >> may
>> >> >> >> > >see only a small decrease in decompression time -- maybe 5
>> >minutes
>> >> >by
>> >> >> >> using
>> >> >> >> > >100% over EAN80. and though you may belive that is not a
>> >> >significant
>> >> >> >> enough
>> >> >> >> > >advantage to make sure you have 100% oxygen here are a few
>more
>> >> >> >> > >non-scientific reasons.  From a mixing standpoint unless you
>are
>> >> >using
>> >> >> >> > >exceptionally clean hyper filtrated air or air produced from
>an
>> >oil
>> >> >> free
>> >> >> >> > >compressor there is risk of explosion when mixing high
>pressure
>> >air
>> >> >on
>> >> >> >> top
>> >> >> >> > >of 100% oxygen. It probably has not happened yet --- but some
>> >day
>> >> >some
>> >> >> >> > >goober will blow up a building doing it. Even if you are
>using a
>> >30
>> >> >> >> cuber
>> >> >> >> > >(small) just cascading 2400 psi oxygen in it will give you 24
>> >cuft
>> >> >of
>> >> >> >> > >oxygen -- for deco thats easily 40 minutes worth, which is a
>lot
>> >of
>> >> >> gas.
>> >> >> >> No
>> >> >> >> > >need to goober around making EAN80 for the other 6 cuft, its
>> >just
>> >> >too
>> >> >> >> much
>> >> >> >> > >work for it and I am sure it costs a bit more, besides if you
>> >are
>> >> >> doing
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> > >dive that requires much more than 40 minutes of oxygen
>> >> >decompression
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> > >would want a bigger tank. The fact that a tank has a pressure
>> >> >rating
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> > >3000 does not mean you have to fill it to that level. I have
>an
>> >> >> >> excellent
>> >> >> >> > >tank chart for all currently available tanks in the US on our
>> >web
>> >> >> site -
>> >> >> >> go
>> >> >> >> > >look at it. Next; most consumer available oxygen analyzers
>using
>> >> >> >> > >electrochemical sensors can be off by as much as 2% in their
>> >> >readings,
>> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> > >is your 80% really 80 or is it 78? Whereas pure oxygen is
>> >upwards
>> >> >of
>> >> >> 99%
>> >> >> >> > >pure -- it's a known item.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >Arnie, as a techie in training you have an opportunity right
>in
>> >> >front
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> > >you. It's two roads ... the left road is filled with
>> >exploration,
>> >> >> >> > >friendships, technology and long proven safety procedures.
>The
>> >> >right
>> >> >> >> road
>> >> >> >> > >is bumpy, full of mis answered questions, body bags, and
>> >strokified
>> >> >> >> > >convolution. I get the feeling your want to take the high
>road
>> >and
>> >> >do
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> > >right. In Judaic studies we are taught to ask why not to
>follow
>> >> >> blindly.
>> >> >> >> > >So in this very long winding response (If I had more time it
>> >would
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> > >been shorter) the answer is .... EAN80 buys you 6 cuft more
>gas,
>> >> >but
>> >> >> >> buys
>> >> >> >> > >you nothing else. Take no shortcuts when it comes to
>technical
>> >> >diving.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >Good Luck
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >At 10:21 PM 11/22/1998 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>Joel,
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >>Another question for you.  It is prompted by your post on
>the
>> >> >bottle
>> >> >> >> > >>marking issue.
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >>What is the advantage of 100% O2 compared to 80% O2.  I've
>been
>> >> >using
>> >> >> >> > >>the latter for deco.  For one, it is somewhat easier to get
>at
>> >> >local
>> >> >> >> > >>dive shops because it is harder to pump the 100% to 3,000
>psi,
>> >but
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> > >>is merely convenience.  More importantly, I can get on the
>80%
>> >at
>> >> >> 30ft
>> >> >> >> > >>and have the advantage of breathing a higher gradient gas
>mix
>> >> >sooner
>> >> >> >> > >>than waiting to the 20ft stop.  The published tables I've
>seen
>> >> >give
>> >> >> no
>> >> >> >> > >>time advantage to doing deco on 100% over 80%.
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >>What is your view and why?  TIA.
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >>Blow gentle bubbles,
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >>Arnie
>> >> >> >> > >>Tech Diver in Training
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >Joel Silverstein
>> >> >> >> > >Scuba Training + Travel Co.
>> >> >> >> > >http://www.NitroxDiver.com
>> >> >> >> > >--
>> >> >> >> > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >> >> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >--
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >                 \  \
>> >> >> >^_              \  \                 Case E. Harris
>> >> >> >  \ \             {   \         US Deep Wreck Diving Team
>> >> >> >  {  \           /     `~~~--__   diveman@cy*.co*
>> >> >> >  {   \___----~~'              `~~-_
>> >> >> >   \                         /// `  `~.           ___  Oo
>> >> >> >   / /~~~~-, ,__.    ,      ///  __,,,,)         (___)o_o
>> >> >> >   \/      \/    `~~~;   ,---~~-_`~=        //====--//(_)
>> >> >> >                    /   /                           \\ ^
>> >> >> >                   '._.'   Deep...Professional...The Standard!
>> >> >> >--
>> >> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >
>

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