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> John Walker said:
> > You know what Greg. The Hogartian concept has been around for a very
> >long time. George has just brought it back to the attention of OUR
> >COMMUNITY. It works well for me also but his way is not the only way to
> >dive.
>
> With the above to establish context...
>
> With all due respect, GENTLEMEN, this is bullshit.
>
> Stop for a moment, pull the cotton out of your ears and stuff it in your
> mouth, and LOOK AT THE RECORDS.
>
> LOOK at the WKPP track record under George. Literally dozens of outings.
> Literally thousands of dives. Literally miles of linear penetration,
> literally miles of line laid at 285 ffw. ZERO (0) fatalities and ONE (1)
> incident that, by the grace of God and the hands of an experienced team,
> was a save instead of a fatality.
>
> Look at the other side. Reread the Jane Ornstein body recovery report.
> Reread the West Palm Beach clusterfuck reports. Reread Gilliam's List.
>
> If diving is inherently so dangerous, and the WKPP practices don't mean
> anything in terms of real safety, then the WKPP "should" have a death and
> incident rate that is within, oh, say, one order of magnitude of the rest
> of the world. Except they DON'T.
>
> I am a simple Advanced Open Water diver. I am not a trimix diver, I am not
> (yet) a cave diver. I am also an engineer and I can do simple basic
> statistical analysis, basic enough to know that ZERO DEFECTS (in this
> contexts, zero fatalities) means that SOMEONE IS FRICKING DOING SOMETHING
> RIGHT.
>
> I love diving. I love it enough that I am willing to do it. I am willing
> to take the basic risk of putting myself in an environment that will kill
> me without hesitation or remorse if I allow it. Dying on a dive means I
> don't get to dive anymore. Dying on a dive will screw up my day, it will
> screw up my buddies' days, it will screw up my family's days, it will screw
> up my friends' days. That makes dying on a dive something that I want very
> much NOT to do.
>
> I would expect that you guys love diving almost as much as I do. Doing
> something that puts your life at risk, that you don't love doing, is just
> plain nuts. If you didn't love diving, you wouldn't do it. So it seems to
> me that you guys don't want to die on a dive any more than I do.
>
> Look at the records. Look at the WKPP death rate. Zero. Look at the
> IANTD death rate. Nonzero. Look at the IANTD dive complexity. Moderately
> high. Look at the WKPP dive complexity. VERY HIGH.
>
> WKPP IS DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. Rather than rave about Mad King George,
> maybe you should be listening to what they are saying and looking at what
> they are doing. Ignore the way they are saying it, but LISTEN TO WHAT THEY
> ARE SAYING.
>
> That is what I am doing. I want to dive and not die, so I can go diving
> again tomorrow.
>
> --John
John, you need to remember that the divers on these WKPP outings are
highly advanced technical cave divers. They are using a very proven
system for themselfs as well as for many of us. I too dive in this same
hogartian fasion and it is perfect for me on most all occassions BUT
their stage configuration is very difficult and more confusing for many
intro level tech divers. Now remember that this in itself is an
adaptation to the hagartian rig concept. In cave diving our right side
is busy with a canister light which can also assist us as a counter
balance. Stages on this side don't work well so we usually wear them on
our left. In an intro technical dive in which we wear no canister on
our right hip and where we require multiple stages I feel that the
students are much more comfortable wearing left to right. The higher
FO2 gas goes on the right side and the lower on the left. You can't
tell me that this has caused any deaths or that it is any less safe that
wearing two or more stages on the left side. If you can, I am all ears.
If you are as you say, only an advanced open water diver, than what
makes you feel that you know so much about technical diving anyhow.
Take some training and tell the instructor that you would like to wear
two stages on your left side and swim around for 20 minutes or so. Then
tell me how well it worked for you.
John
--
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