Tom,

You write about how the main purpose behind Wakulla 2 is to produce a 
good map. Many moons ago I asked Richie Pyle if that was indeed the 
case, why not provide the mapper to the divers already familiar with 
the cave, and have yet to receive an answer.

May I remind you that it was King and Stone who said they wanted to 
"triple the 6,000-foot penetration accomplished by the Woodville 
Karst Plain Project" (Wakulla Too article, Aquacorps magazine).

Stone is the one who threw out the first set of insults when he was 
quoted as saying, "And you can play what I term open-circuit heroics 
and eke out another 15 or 20 percent". Of course, "Open-Circuit 
heroics" pushed Wakulla out to 10,000'...

Come on here, we all know what they're claiming their "goals" are, 
but we also must remember what their goals used to be. 

The reality is quite simple, Stone is trying to prove his 
rebreather so he can sell them to the techno-babies in the world. 
By proving that "it was tough enough for Wakulla", it will have all 
of the techno-philes lined up ready to pet that $17,000 pony. 
Personally, I could care less about this point because P.T. Barnum 
was indeed right about seperating certain people from their 
expendable cash.

And as for King, he's just trying to make up for his loss of face 
when he left his scooter closer to the exit at Wakulla then the first 
deco stop for the push teams.

But, since they now realize they don't have a team capable of helping 
them "triple" (or even go a third) the distance that George, JJ and 
Brent went, they have decided to claim "the purpose is to produce a 
good quality map", in an effort to save face.

I'm sure that no matter how far they go, or rather how far they don't 
go, the map will be good quality and their "goals" will be 
accomplished. But, if their "map" only shows the first 500' of the 
cave (and I mean from the restriction, not the surface), and doesn't 
even get the junction, then what good would it be? The cave still 
goes on for another 15km with "no end in sight".

As I've said before, and now I'll ask you this Tom, if indeed the 
goal is to produce a good quality map why don't they have the guys 
who are already familiar with the cave take the mapper? I mean, there 
is indeed no "glory" in this for them, is there?

Ken




> > From: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> > To: kirvine@sa*.ne*; Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>
> > Cc: armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*; dive4wrk@pi*.co*; 'rebreather'
> <rebreather@nw*.co*>; Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*>;
> wwm@sa*.ne*; cavers@ca*.co*
> > Subject: Re: $$$$$$$Cis Lunar MK 5 course
> > Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 10:05 AM
> > 
> > George,
> > It would take a lot of classes to make back a $35.000 investment in
> > equipment especially on a limited production item. plus neither Paul or
> Jill
> > have expressed an interest in teaching the MK 5.
> > 
> > Also as Rich stated my post dealt with training the word cave exploration
> > was not even mentioned.
> > 
> > However George the unit is being cave dived at this moment and it will be
> > cave dived in Wakulla.
> > 
> > It is my understanding that the goal there is to produce a good map and
> that
> > you(George) are the only one hipped on "the end of the line". mentality.
> No
> > one else really cares about the end of the line.
> > 
> > In fact with the exception of only a few divers there is no interest
> > anywhere in the world in going to the end of the line at Wakulla. Most of
> > those divers if not all are represented within about 5 to 6 members of
> your
> > own team. Most others have other goals in life and priorities that are
> > placed above the end of a line in a cave. In fact in the overall big
> picture
> > few divers even care one way or the other about cave diving, a great many
> > think all of us who cave dive or nuts in the first place, thus you can
> > imagine their thoughts on the dives and the statements you make.
> > 
> > 
> >  However there is an open mind to the possibility that if in the course
> of
> > events the end of the line is reached then why not add a wee bit to it.
> But
> > that event is looked on simply as a occurrence that may or may not evolve
> > during the process of completing a exceptional map and the ensuing
> knowledge
> > of the system such a map may help to determine.
> > 
> > The mentality and goals of the W2 as told to me is not END of the line ,
> but
> > rather completion of the map and the publication of the results of this
> map
> > for the state to use as a toll in water and environmental management.
> > 
> > Grow up George, your second childhood does not have to totally consume
> you,
> > somewhere in there a real person exist.
> > 
> > Do you have a life anymore that does not evolve around the end of the
> line
> > in Wakulla, George it is like you are possessed with this single goal in
> > life.
> > 
> >  Do you ever think about enjoying a sunset with your family?
> > 
> > What about having a quiet mild evening with friends or does that distract
> > you from getting to the end of the line to severely?
> > 
> > I do not think you have made a complete conversation on any of these list
> > without referring to going to the end of the line. We all realize that
> the
> > end of the line is what you live for, overcoming your fears, mastering
> the
> > challenges, proving your manhood or whatever it is that the end of the
> line
> > holds for you.
> > 
> > George, why don't you learn a little from your lead explorer JJ, he knows
> > how to take life in stride, he is confident of his abilities and realizes
> > that while W 2 is on he has other exciting caves to explore and once W2
> is
> > over he will be able to once again explore Wakulla as well.
> > 
> > Unlike you George, JJ apparently  knows how to be an explorer and not be
> > consumed by it and he seems to have a real life and other interest at the
> > same time. It is odd that in this case the younger explorer has so much
> to
> > teach the older explorer. .
> > 
> > You should set back during this project, reintroduce yourself to your
> > family, walk along some quiet beaches, practice some of your 'stated"
> > beliefs as a ordained minister, seek a little inner peace and become a
> happy
> > person.
> > 
> > George as you have stated this is a one time project, you have a life
> time
> > of access to these caves, nothing that is happening is going to prevent
> you
> > ability to continue the exploration of these caves, just relax and have a
> > life for this short period then return to you obsession with gusto.
> > 
> > As you so often tell us you still have numerous caves to explore during
> this
> > period, take advantage of this, maybe you will be on the brink of a
> > connection by the end of this project.
> > 
> > 
> > Respectfully yours,
> > Tom Mount
> > CEO IANTD World HQ
> > http://www.iantd.com
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: KVI <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> > To: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>
> > Cc: armantrout@wo*.at*.ne* <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jess
> > Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; dive4wrk@pi*.co*
> > <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; 'rebreather'
> > <rebreather@nw*.co*>; Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*>;
> > wwm@sa*.ne* <wwm@sa*.ne*>; cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 6:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: $$$$$$$Cis Lunar MK 5 course
> > 
> > 
> > >Richie, Tom is again running his mouth trying to promote something under
> > >false pretenses. The fact is that Heinerth is a dive instructor who like
> > >everyone else on the USDCT is seeing dollar signs: if he gets a couple
> > >of units and some publicity from this "project", he can make a pretty
> > >penny teaching the Cis to those who want to say they got trained on a
> > >rebreather , if he can keep it working and stay alive.
> > >
> > >Without getting into what I think of Hienerth or his lack of diving
> > >ability, I will say that his business judgement is flawed: in the same
> > >town he lives in there is a company called Carleson which makes the
> > >Navy's MK16 rebreather and a civilian version called the 1600 which is a
> > >lot better bet from every point of view.
> > >
> > >Tom's glowing flapjaw about "product endorsement" is crap: my opinion is
> > >that Heinerth is so desparate to be a big shot and so fearful of being
> > >cut out of the Wakulla diving loop in favor of better divers ( which is
> > >anyone who can breathe) that he has "committed" his "house money" (
> > >according to Mount) to achieve this status and guarantee his position.
> > >
> > >Knowing what I know  about Stone, Stone will liklely still stick the
> > >guys who can actually dive ( if he ever gets any ) ahead of heinerth
> > >anyway, and knowing what I know of King, King will want to be out there
> > >himself, no matter how many years it takes him to get past the entrance
> > >- Henierth might get to carry tanks or catch goldfish in the basin.
> > >
> > >The real story is who is NOT on this team: Skiles , Morris, Mark Long -
> > >all veteran cave divers with individual accomplishments in their own
> > >right which speak for themselves who will have nothing to do with this
> > >fiasco. Instead we see two known strokes from OZ, Billy Dean's
> > >"girlfriend", some section 8 , and the famous Jim Lockwood. Even Snapper
> > >Eye and his father ( take all the stage bottles and leave buddy )
> > >McGuire have quit, even Larry Green has quit, and the bottom line is
> > >that the only person who is known to have an IQ above the double digit
> > >level who is also a cave diver, Dr John Zumrick, cleary has not
> > >"endorsed" this product for cave diving by making the purchase, but then
> > >who would waste their money on a hype job when the real thing is
> > >abvailable at a better price from a better company that has had real
> > >testing? This was not the case when you took the plunge, Mr. Pyle, so we
> > >can't realy call you an idiot, just unlucky. I also hope you have not
> > >been getting bent lately, you will wear those rubber duckies plum out in
> > >the bathtub.
> > >
> > >
> > >Richard Pyle wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Tom described a successful MK5 course.  You assigned deep long range
> cave
> > >> exploration as the "stated purpose" of the MK5. What, exactly, did I
> > miss?
> > >>
> > >> Besides,  I was really just writing a message to Joe about the boat
> oil
> > >> thing, but I thought I'd have some fun along the way, since Joe was
> > >> conveniently cc'd on this little conversation.
> > >>
> > >> Rich
> > >>
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: Jess Armantrout [mailto:armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*]
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:15 PM
> > >> > To: Richard Pyle; dive4wrk@pi*.co*; Tom Mount
> > >> > Cc: KVI; 'rebreather'; Jim Brown
> > >> > Subject: Re: Cis Lunar MK 5 course
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > uh, we are talking about Jill and Paul and the usdct...try to follow
> > along
> > >> > Richie.  Next time I will type slower so you don't get lost.
> > >> >
> > >> > Jess
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------
> > >> > > From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>
> > >> > > To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
> > dive4wrk@pi*.co*;
> > >> > Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> > >> > > Cc: KVI <kirvine@sa*.ne*>; 'rebreather'
> > <rebreather@nw*.co*>;
> > >> > Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*>
> > >> > > Subject: RE: Cis Lunar MK 5 course
> > >> > > Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 4:37 PM
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jess,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I don't cave dive. Does this mean I'm not using my MK5 for its
> > "stated
> > >> > > purpose"?  Oh, no! Please don't tell anyone at Cis-Lunar that I'm
> > using
> > >> > for
> > >> > > other than the "stated purpose" - they might revoke my
> certification.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks,
> > >> > > Rich
> > >> > >
> > >> > > BTW, is the "stated purpose" of the Halcyon also "deep long range
> > cave
> > >> > > exploration"?  If so, I guess that explains why Joe has been using
> > his
> > >> > MK-15
> > >> > > a lot lately.....
> > >> > >
> > >> > > P.S. to Joe: Jennifer just told me that you paid for the oil last
> > >> > > Sunday....you bastard!  I was supposed to pay for the oil - you
> > >> > were just
> > >> > > supposed to buy her a bagel.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > I have always found that seeing a product successfully used for
> > >> > > > it's stated
> > >> > > > purpose, in this case deep long range cave exploration,  to be a
> > far
> > >> > more
> > >> > > > powerful testimonial.
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
"Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got
hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse

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