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George, here's the boilerplate answer to your fluff. I authorize anyone to cut and paste this to any post you make. It'll apply every time. I presume you refer to your strident yearly rant about the perceived W2 threat. You see, I don't care a bit about WKKKP's performance, or for that matter, W2's. It doesn't interest me in the least. I'm exposed to it, this year in the same manner as the last (remember our "Who Cares?" correspondence last year?), and respond to your BS as targets of opportunity. Beyond that, Who Cares? Your pattern is remarkably similar when W2 gets close. Take last year as the example. You hammer the dead horse into a hazmat pulp, then quiet down for the rest of the season for, poor things, you really have very little to contribute beyond your extremely limited-in-scope cave application. After your crude, emotional, and largely irrelevent political hosing of a project (W2) that probably won't get off for many reasons (I could name any number, but what do I know about cave diving?), the list will go back to its constructive, mostly useful norm. Regards, Brown -----Original Message----- From: KVI <kirvine@sa*.ne*> To: Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*> Cc: Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>; cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*> Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 7:12 AM Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT >Brown, with all lack of respect, we have enough blithering idiots on >here without your help. All you big mouths love the cis lunar, yet none >of you are actually stupid enough to buy one, and with Carlton getting >ready to produce a civilian version of the only known working and tested >rebreather, as well as Pete Reedy's other machine, only the worst >"luddite" , as Pete Heseltine would say, is going to pay money into the >black hole that is cis lunar only to listen to Stone tell them that the >machines can not be deliverd due to a time warp. > > The party is all but over for the pretenders - they will hose >themselves at Wakulla, and by next spring there will be real rebreathers >from real companies with real people who really have tested the >machines, and not one machine in the hands of one liar with one trainer >who is recommending cave diving with them yet will not do it himself. > > The bullshit is coming to a close, and then you will get to hear me >laughing in all of your faces for years to come. That 18 grand is going >to look pretty long and very real very soon. > > I am real sick of listening to pussies tell me how to do what they can >not do. I have been there and done that repeatedly, like 200 + times, >and nobody on the usdct has done it once anywhere, and certainly nobody >in the general diving community. It is all just numbers to you guys, but >it is going to get real, and I am going to be laughing and making a >permanent issue of embarrassing anyone who has run their big mouth. > > I will also personally buy a Pete Reedy machine and dive it in a cave >just to screw you idiots over. Unlike the rest of you , I can do the >dives on open circuit, so the "risk" to me is not the same, and my dive >team is so good that I could probably do an entire dive with them >without even have tanks or a rebreather on my person, the way we film >commercials dwon here. > >Fighting with us is a losing proposition - we don't ever quit, and will >go to any lengths to Hanibalize the enemy. > > >Jim Brown wrote: >> >> Oh, well sorry. I wasn't arguing for or against any particular equipment or >> technique for cave diving. I don't know anything about it, except for what >> I've read. >> >> Guess I missed the point of the post that I responded to. >> >> Regards, Brown >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*> >> To: Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*>; Tom Mount >> <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Rebreather mail >> list <rebreather@nw*.co*> >> Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; techdiver >> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri >> <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; >> kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*> >> Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:43 PM >> Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT >> >> >Man, I gotta get some stuff done, so I swear this is my last post for a >> >while... >> > >> >The point that is being overlooked here is why use a machine where you >> >might have to manually inject the oxygen. >> > >> >We have determined that due to pulminary oxtox considerations, CCR will >> >provide minimal deco advantage at wakulla. We are hearing from Tom that >> >they will most likely have full blown OC bailout, so the bulk issue is >> >gone. We all agree that the Cis is more complex than the Halcyon. Why is >> >it, again, that the usdct is using CC technology at all? >> > >> >Step back from the hype and politics for just a moment and tell me again >> >why this is the best solution. Your arguments are not holding water, so to >> >speak. >> > >> >Trout...over and out >> > >> >---------- >> >From: Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*> >> >To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; >> >Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*> >> >Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; "Jess Armantrout" <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; >> >techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri >> ><dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; >> >kirvine@sa*.ne* >> >Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT >> >Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 1:19 AM >> > >> >Hi Tom, >> > >> >This does indicate how little Bill knows about CCMG. >> > >> >Not only on the MK 5, but on any reasonable closed loop (volume-wise) at >> >300 >> >or so FFW, at near resting (scootering) VO2, it would take 10 minutes or >> >more to reduce the loop PO2 from the alarm point (given a realistic >> >setpoint) to a hypoxic level. Also at that depth, a short manual shot of O2 >> >(3 or 4 seconds?) would be very effective (depending of course on the >> >manual >> >injection flow rate). What's so distracting about a three second manual >> >button press? Are you guys that task loaded during cave dives? >> > >> >Unless of course the diver had some unrational fear and loathed to >> >understand the technology and had to bring the point up theoretically. Then >> >anything could happen. Mighty Mouse could even come rescue the diver from >> >the jaws of the cave godzilla standing between the diver and his (her) >> >buddy >> >:.) >> > >> >Happy Diving from Jim Brown in Colorado Springs, CO >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> >> >To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Rebreather mail list >> ><rebreather@nw*.co*> >> >Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Jess Armantrout" >> ><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan >> >Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" >> ><deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*> >> >Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 7:30 AM >> >Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT >> > >> > >> >>Hi Bill >> >> >> >> >> >>This is the emergency you presented: following it would be my reaction to >> >>this not really serious event. >> >> >> >> (per Bill) >> >>Lets pose the following scenario: You are on your CIS 4000ft back in A >> >>>tunnel in a section with 4ft viz. You are following your buddy on the >> >line >> >>>while trying to maintain control of your scooter without inhaling the >> >line >> >>>or other adjacent lines. Suddenly you notice the o2 warning light start >> >>>flashing in the heads up display and at the same time you notice that the >> >>>oxygen solenoid is not longer firing. >> >> >> >>Bill, First before I flashed my buddy, I would manually inject oxygen as >> >>what you described is a low oxygen situation. I would switch the unit into >> >>manual operation and continue the dive , in this case I would not even >> >>bother to do OC ,as at the time the HUD gives me awarning it simply tells >> >>me I', 0.02 below my normal setpoint and in no danger of hypoxia, If I >> >>checked the ROD and found I was nearing a hypoxic situation I would then >> >go >> >>OC for a couple of breaths while I injected oxygen back to the normal >> >>setpoint ( by the way I would have adequate OC bailout if I did this dive, >> >>just would not have needed it in this case). >> >> >> >>You flash your buddy ahead of you but >> >>>he cant see your light flash because of the bad visibility. You pause >> >to >> >>>switch over to open circuit. This is now a serious emergency and you need >> >>to >> >>>get on to the backup system asap. Now, your buddy is gone and will not >> >know >> >>>that you are in trouble until he gets to clear water which may not be for >> >>>another 1000 ft. >> >> >> >>Bill, this situtation is so easy to solve that there would be no reason to >> >>shutdown the DPV as it is solves on the fly >> >> >> >>Your buddy is towing the backup rebreather on the backup >> >>>scooter and your open circuit will only last 3 5 minutes at best at >> >>280ft. >> >> >> >>Bill; Even if we were seperated I do not need the backup rebreather >> >>Bill when you present a scenario like this it clearly reflects that you do >> >>not have a working knowledge of the MK 5. It will talke much more than >> >this >> >>to demand a permanent if any switch to OC. A lot of options are available >> >to >> >>remain on CCR and then you can bailout to SCR. The OC would only need to >> >be >> >>used during a transistion from one mode to the other as a precaution and >> >to >> >>be sure you had the system stable. >> >> >> >>I agree with you and I think most of the participants on the W2 project do >> >>that adequate OC bailout should be available. But you need to understand >> >>there are numerous ways to survive on the MK 5 prior to OC bailout and >> >that >> >>the OC bailout is easy to access and allows time for thinking. I have not >> >>todate encountered a situtation that required me to stay in OC bailout >> >mode >> >>including total loss of sensors, because I got in a hurry and failed to >> >lock >> >>them into the sensor housing during one of my early dives on the unit. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>You think about how foolish you were to have believed in Bill Stone and >> >how >> >>>nice your life was. These are your last thoughts. >> >>> >> >> >> >>But they would not be anyones last thoughts who has been trained on the MK >> >>5, because it was not a serious problem >> >> >> >>Next scenario please >> >> >> >>Respectfully yours, >> >>Tom Mount >> >>CEO IANTD World HQ >> >>http://www.iantd.com >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*> >> >>To: Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*> >> >>Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Tom Mount" >> >><TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; "Jess Armantrout" >> >><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan >> >>Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" >> >><deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne* >> ><kirvine@sa*.ne*> >> >>Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:03 PM >> >>Subject: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>I have received private emails conveying a sense of frustration and >> >>futility >> >>>about the WKPP. Many individuals feel that they will never have an >> >>>opportunity to dive in such places as Wakulla Springs and other sites >> >under >> >>>the WKPPs aegis, because they are viewed as bad guys or feel they are >> >>>hated either by the director or other members. It is this abject >> >>hopeless >> >>>frustration which has motivated many people to sign on with the USDCT or >> >>>forever remain as vocal detractors lurking on the periphery of our >> >>>organization.. >> >>> >> >>>Aside from a tiny handful of people, whose attitude and retrograde >> >mindset >> >>>permanently prevents them from changing their ways, no one is excluded >> >from >> >>>participation in the activities of the WKPP. It is well understood, >> >though >> >>>perhaps not at first glance, that certain activities are inappropriate >> >for >> >>>some members. The WKPP got its start and made its initial mark in the >> >deep >> >>>exploration of Leon Sinks and there is a potent understanding of the >> >>extreme >> >>>dangers and challenges of this form of diving. There is obviously a lot >> >to >> >>>be learned about mixed gas exploration diving. Especially prior to >> >taking >> >>>on major life or death challenge. The WKPPs program of gradually >> >exposing >> >>>members to all aspects of specialized diving, from surface management, >> >gas >> >>>mixing and deployment, dive setup, dive support, scooter diving, gas >> >diving >> >>>and exploration diving is a time and result proven enterprise. We have a >> >>>good track record and intend to keep it that way. >> >>> >> >>>It is exceptionally common in this sport to encounter those who are >> >trying >> >>>to prove something either to themselves or their peer group. The trying >> >>to >> >>>prove something problem is at the core of much of the human carnage in >> >>>technical diving, if you havent already noticed. Within the WKPP >> >>>organization there are many checks and balances and hurdles in place to >> >>>prevent people from hastening their demise. Anybody who is serious about >> >>>pursuing mixed gas exploration cave diving should want to embrace this >> >>>ideology and not perceive it as a type of punishment for political >> >>>divergence. >> >>> >> >>>In short, anybody who really wants to dive and is committed to doing what >> >>it >> >>>takes will get a shot with the one caveat Eventually. >> >>> >> >>>Jess Armantrout has articulately described the arduous path to diving in >> >>>extreme situations, such as Wakulla Springs. In keeping with the core >> >WKPP >> >>>philosophy of the team is my life support Jess has disclosed the most >> >>>basic of all requirements. That is the requisite of having two other >> >>members >> >>>who will dive with you as a team before you go anywhere, after all of the >> >>>other hurdles have been attained. The USDCT should think long and hard >> >>>about this. >> >>> >> >>>Our problem with the USDCT is not with the rank and file of people with >> >>>legitimate aspirations and a desire to share in the opportunity to >> >explore >> >>>spectacular natural wonders. It is with the mistaken believe that there >> >is >> >>>a magic shortcut to this activity. We perceive this situation not unlike >> >>the >> >>>perpetration of a fraud on the innocent and ignorant. Bill Stone, as >> >>project >> >>>leader presides over this situation and will be the one to accept >> >>>responsibility when someone is killed or injured. You would think that >> >the >> >>>experience of carrying a dead friend out Huatla would have tempered his >> >>>enthusiasm for frivolous risk and made him much more careful in is >> >planning >> >>>and preparation. >> >>> >> >>>When we listen to his ignorant and nonsensical remarks, which find their >> >>way >> >>>into the public domain (he will not debate us publicly) we are shocked at >> >>>the blatant stupidity of certain of these hare brained schemes. Using the >> >>>Cis Lunar Mk 5 without adequate open circuit bailout is a fine example of >> >>>this dyslexic reasoning. While we have made our opinion well known >> >>regarding >> >>>the use of electronic CCRs in an overhead environment (very risky, but >> >>>sometimes all 18 wheels will miss the smiling possum) we certainly would >> >>>give Stone and King their due with a green light. That is if they take >> >the >> >>>minimum precautions of a basic open circuit escape mechanism, at least >> >for >> >>>the others in the project, if not themselves. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>When you consider the above and you weigh the measured careful approach >> >of >> >>>the WKPP I hope you can understand why we do the things we do and take >> >the >> >>>inflexible attitude that we do. The issue here is not hatred of others, >> >but >> >>>an overriding concern for the safety and well being of other humans in >> >>what >> >>>otherwise is a very serious and dangerous enterprise. Please view it in >> >>>that regard and do not take umbrage of offense. >> >>> >> >>>Best wishes, >> >>> >> >>>Bill Mee >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >---------- >> > >> > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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