And so we arrive at the same old en passe.  Nobody has ever done a
significant cave dive with the Cis, so we can not prove either of us right.
 The permit is in effect and no diving is going on, though B and C are
clear and only 400  feet from the entrance thru the same conditions thru
which  WKPP dives thousands of feet.  Rumors are beginning to circulate
that Stone & Co. may postpone for yet another YEAR and so we are going to
have to continue to bore these lists with our same old ramblings.

Or we could go back to bashing the Atlantis!

Gotta run..be out for a few days, so give 'em hell, Richie!

Trout

----------
> From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>
> To: Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Brown
<jdb1740@ea*.ne*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Bill Mee
<wwm@sa*.ne*>; Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>
> Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan Volker"
<dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> Subject: RE: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
> Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 4:54 PM
> 
> 
> Jess,
> 
> It has nothing to do with optimal deco.  It does hve something to do with
> bulk, but even that is not the main thing.  The main thing is "options".
> With the MK-5, you have MANY, MANY, MANY options to solve problems.  One
of
> those options, which is the second-to-last resort hail-mary bailout (the
> *last* resort hail-mary bailout being OC), is the SCR mode.  In this mode
> the diver flushes the loop with diluent, and subsequently exhales every
n-th
> breath through the nose, allowing the automatic diluent addition valve to
> make up the volume.  At 300 feet "n" is 10.  In shallow water, "n" is 4.
> Sound familiar? This mode is also (and unofficially) referred to as
"Halcyon
> mode".
> 
> Now, I know it's very easy for the uninformed to equate "MANY, MANY, MANY
> options" with "high task loading".  Unfortunately, it just doesn't work
that
> way.  "MANY, MANY, MANY options" does, however, translate to a lot of
> training.  But once that training is mastered, task-loading is nill.
> 
> To save some time on future debates, let me give you guys a little hint.
> You are all barking up the wrong tree.  All of your hypothetical failure
> situations begin with "The diver notices that XYZ has failed..."  Dude,
> here's the thing:  Once "The diver notices...", the rest is easy.  VERY
> easy. Hell, all the guys I worked with had the problem-solving skills
> mastered in the first couple of days.  It's the problem-*recognition*
skills
> that take time. The situations that will kill someone (on any
well-designed
> CCR) never start out with "The diver notices..."  Those are the
situations
> where the diver survives.  The only deadly situations begin with: "The
diver
> didn't notice that..."
> 
> So, how do we prevent the a situation where "The diver didn't notice..."?
> One thing we can do is throw all sorts of lights and audio alarms at the
> diver, giving them ample notification of a problem.  That's easy, but as
> everyone knows, you can't trust electronics underwater. So, the next
thing
> you can do is put the fear of GOD into them about how complacency kills.
> That's what my main job at Madison was.  By all acoounts, I seem to have
> succeeded. The hypoxia event, if anything, helped me achieve that goal. 
The
> next thing you can do is spend many hours diving the unit.  Just dive,
dive,
> dive.  This gives you a more intuitive, subconsious "feel" for when the
> system is working the way it is supposed to.  Sort of like how you guys
> develop a "feel" for when the Halcyon is venting at the rate it should be
> venting, without actually counting breaths between gas additions and
> comparing with your depth gauge.
> 
> So, here's the thing to keep in mind.  If you want to construct effective
> hypothetical situations where a MK-5 diver has a life-threatening problem
in
> A-Tunnel, never begin the hypothetical situation with "The diver
> notices...", because right there your example is useless.  Start the
> situation with "The diver doesn't notice...."   Also, while I'm at it, I
> will reveal to you the single MOST dangerous aspect of the MK-5.  None of
> you have even come close to guessing it yet, so I'll just flat out tell
you
> right now.  Listen carefully, because this is important.  The MOST
dangerous
> aspect of the MK-5 is that it is too damn reliable.  Yup, that's
> right....too damn reliable.  It doesn't fail often enough. The Mk-4 had
all
> sorts of failures from time to time, as any prototype does.  That's good,
> because I learned to dive on the MK-4, and I learned that rebreathers can
> fail on you when you least expect them to.  That taught me paranoia. The
> first batch of MK-5's had all sorts of software glitches too.  None of
them
> horrendously serious, but they were there.  That allowed the first batch
of
> MK-5 divers to acquire a healthy sense of paranoia.  The problem is, the
> latest software is very solid.  It doesn't fail often enough.  Thus, I
had
> to manually induce a whole slew of failures on the units at Madison in an
> effort to convey the apporpriate sense of paranoia (and in one case, I
went
> overboard on this effort).  However, as they are building up time on the
> units, they are not encountering frequent failures.  As far as I've been
> told, they aren't encountering many failures at all.  The dangerous thing
> about this is that it makes it easy for complacency to creep into the
> picture.  And, as we should all know by now, complacency is what kills on
a
> rebreather.
> 
> Now you know the dirty little secret.  So, if you want to criticise Bill
> Stone, here's the way to do it:
> 
> "Stone obviously doesn't know anything about cave diving, because he made
> his rebreather too damn reliable.  With such a reliable rebreather, it
takes
> a lot more discipline for the USDCT divers to avoid complacency.  If
Stone
> knew anything about diving at Wakulla, he would make sure those
rebreathers
> failed all the time, so the divers would stay disciplined."
> 
> If you can follow along these lines, then Tom and I and others won't have
to
> waste our time responding to your totally nonsense situations.
> 
> Hope that clears things up.
> 
> Aloha,
> Rich
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jess Armantrout [mailto:armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 8:42 AM
> > To: Jim Brown; Tom Mount; Bill Mee; Rebreather mail list
> > Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; techdiver; "Dan Volker"; LT Dituri; "Richard
> > Pyle"; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> > Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
> >
> >
> > Man, I gotta get some stuff done, so I swear this is my last post for a
> > while...
> >
> > The point that is being overlooked here is why use a machine where you
> > might have to manually inject the oxygen.
> >
> > We have determined that due to pulminary oxtox considerations, CCR will
> > provide minimal deco advantage at wakulla.  We are hearing from Tom
that
> > they will most likely have full blown OC bailout, so the bulk issue is
> > gone.  We all agree that the Cis is more complex than the Halcyon.  Why
is
> > it, again, that the usdct is using CC technology at all?
> >
> > Step back from the hype and politics for just a moment and tell me
again
> > why this is the best solution.  Your arguments are not holding
> > water, so to
> > speak.
> >
> > Trout...over and out
> >
> > ----------
> > From: Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*>
> > To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>;
> > Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>
> > Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; "Jess Armantrout" <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
> > techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT
Dituri
> > <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>;
> > kirvine@sa*.ne*
> > Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
> > Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 1:19 AM
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > This does indicate how little Bill knows about CCMG.
> >
> > Not only on the MK 5, but on any reasonable closed loop (volume-wise)
at
> > 300
> > or so FFW, at near resting (scootering) VO2, it would take 10 minutes
or
> > more to reduce the loop PO2 from the alarm point (given a realistic
> > setpoint) to a hypoxic level. Also at that depth, a short manual
> > shot of O2
> > (3 or 4 seconds?) would be very effective (depending of course on the
> > manual
> > injection flow rate). What's so distracting about a three second manual
> > button press? Are you guys that task loaded during cave dives?
> >
> > Unless of course the diver had some unrational fear and loathed to
> > understand the technology and had to bring the point up
> > theoretically. Then
> > anything could happen. Mighty Mouse could even come rescue the diver
from
> > the jaws of the cave godzilla standing between the diver and his (her)
> > buddy
> > :.)
> >
> > Happy Diving from Jim Brown in Colorado Springs, CO
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> > To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Rebreather mail list
> > <rebreather@nw*.co*>
> > Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Jess Armantrout"
> > <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan
> > Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle"
> > <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> > <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 7:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
> >
> >
> > >Hi Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >This is the emergency you presented: following it would be my reaction
to
> > >this not really serious event.
> > >
> > > (per Bill)
> > >Let’s pose the following scenario:  You are on your CIS 4000ft back in
A
> > >>tunnel in a section with 4ft viz.  You are following your buddy on
the
> > line
> > >>while trying to maintain control of your scooter without inhaling the
> > line
> > >>or other adjacent lines. Suddenly you notice the o2 warning light
start
> > >>flashing in the heads up display and at the same time you
> > notice that the
> > >>oxygen solenoid is not longer firing.
> > >
> > >Bill,  First before I flashed my buddy, I would manually inject oxygen
as
> > >what you described is a low oxygen situation. I would switch the
> > unit into
> > >manual operation and continue the dive , in this case I would not even
> > >bother to do OC ,as at the time the HUD gives me  awarning it
> > simply tells
> > >me I', 0.02 below my normal setpoint and in no danger of hypoxia,  If
I
> > >checked the ROD and found I was nearing a hypoxic situation I would
then
> > go
> > >OC for a couple of breaths while I injected oxygen back to the normal
> > >setpoint ( by the way I would have adequate OC bailout if I did
> > this dive,
> > >just would not have needed it in this case).
> > >
> > >You flash your buddy ahead of you but
> > >>he can’t see your light flash because of the bad visibility.  You
pause
> > to
> > >>switch over to open circuit. This is now a serious emergency
> > and you need
> > >to
> > >>get on to the backup system asap. Now, your buddy is gone and will
not
> > know
> > >>that you are in trouble until he gets to clear water which may
> > not be for
> > >>another 1000 ft.
> > >
> > >Bill, this situtation is so easy to solve that there would be no
> > reason to
> > >shutdown the DPV as it is solves on the fly
> > >
> > >Your buddy is towing the backup rebreather on the backup
> > >>scooter and your open circuit will only last 3 – 5 minutes at best at
> > >280ft.
> > >
> > >Bill; Even if we were seperated I do not need the backup rebreather
> > >Bill when you present a scenario like this it clearly reflects
> > that you do
> > >not have a working knowledge of the MK 5. It will talke much more than
> > this
> > >to demand a permanent if any switch to OC. A lot of options are
available
> > to
> > >remain on CCR and then you can bailout to SCR. The OC would only need
to
> > be
> > >used during a transistion from one mode to the other as a precaution
and
> > to
> > >be sure you had the system stable.
> > >
> > >I agree with you and I think most of the participants on the W2
> > project do
> > >that adequate OC bailout should be available. But you need to
understand
> > >there are numerous ways to survive on the MK 5 prior to OC bailout and
> > that
> > >the OC bailout is easy to access and allows time for thinking. I have
not
> > >todate encountered a situtation that required me to stay in OC bailout
> > mode
> > >including total loss of sensors, because I got in a hurry and failed
to
> > lock
> > >them into the sensor housing during one of my early dives on the unit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>You think about how foolish you were to have believed in Bill Stone
and
> > how
> > >>nice your life was.  These are your last thoughts.
> > >>
> > >
> > >But they would not be anyones last thoughts who has been trained
> > on the MK
> > >5, because it was not a serious problem
> > >
> > >Next scenario please
> > >
> > >Respectfully yours,
> > >Tom Mount
> > >CEO IANTD World HQ
> > >http://www.iantd.com
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>
> > >To: Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>
> > >Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Tom Mount"
> > ><TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; "Jess Armantrout"
> > ><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>;
"Dan
> > >Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle"
> > ><deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> > <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> > >Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:03 PM
> > >Subject: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>I have received private emails conveying a sense of frustration and
> > >futility
> > >>about the WKPP. Many individuals feel that they will never have an
> > >>opportunity to dive in such places as Wakulla Springs and other sites
> > under
> > >>the WKPP’s aegis, because they are viewed as “bad guys” or feel they
are
> > >>“hated” either by the director or other members.  It is this abject
> > >hopeless
> > >>frustration which has motivated many people to sign on with the USDCT
or
> > >>forever remain as vocal detractors lurking on the periphery of our
> > >>organization..
> > >>
> > >>Aside from a tiny handful of people, whose attitude and retrograde
> > mindset
> > >>permanently prevents them from changing their ways, no one is
excluded
> > from
> > >>participation in the activities of the WKPP.  It is well understood,
> > though
> > >>perhaps not at first glance, that certain activities are
inappropriate
> > for
> > >>some members. The WKPP got it’s start and made its initial mark in
the
> > deep
> > >>exploration of Leon Sinks and there is a potent understanding of the
> > >extreme
> > >>dangers and challenges of this form of diving. There is obviously a
lot
> > to
> > >>be learned about mixed gas exploration diving.  Especially prior to
> > taking
> > >>on major life or death challenge. The WKPP’s program of gradually
> > exposing
> > >>members to all aspects of specialized diving, from surface
management,
> > gas
> > >>mixing and deployment, dive setup, dive support, scooter diving, gas
> > diving
> > >>and exploration diving is a time and result proven enterprise.
> > We have a
> > >>good track record and intend to keep it that way.
> > >>
> > >>It is exceptionally common in this sport to encounter those who are
> > “trying
> > >>to prove something” either to themselves or their peer group.
> > The “trying
> > >to
> > >>prove something” problem is at the core of much of the human carnage
in
> > >>technical diving, if you haven’t already noticed. Within the WKPP
> > >>organization there are many checks and balances and hurdles in place
to
> > >>prevent people from hastening their demise.  Anybody who is
> > serious about
> > >>pursuing mixed gas exploration cave diving should want to embrace
this
> > >>ideology and not perceive it as a type of punishment for political
> > >>divergence.
> > >>
> > >>In short, anybody who really wants to dive and is committed to
> > doing what
> > >it
> > >>takes will get a shot with the one caveat  “Eventually”.
> > >>
> > >>Jess Armantrout has articulately described the arduous path to diving
in
> > >>extreme situations, such as Wakulla Springs.  In keeping with the
core
> > WKPP
> > >>philosophy of the “team is my life support” Jess has disclosed the
most
> > >>basic of all requirements. That is the requisite of having two other
> > >members
> > >>who will dive with you as a team before you go anywhere, after
> > all of the
> > >>other hurdles have been attained.  The USDCT should think long and
hard
> > >>about this.
> > >>
> > >>Our problem with the USDCT is not with the rank and file of people
with
> > >>legitimate aspirations and a desire to share in the opportunity to
> > explore
> > >>spectacular natural wonders.  It is with the mistaken believe that
there
> > is
> > >>a magic shortcut to this activity. We perceive this situation not
unlike
> > >the
> > >>perpetration of a fraud on the innocent and ignorant. Bill Stone, as
> > >project
> > >>leader presides over this situation and will be the one to accept
> > >>responsibility when someone is killed or injured.  You would think
that
> > the
> > >>experience of  carrying a dead friend out Huatla would have tempered
his
> > >>enthusiasm for frivolous risk and made him much more careful in is
> > planning
> > >>and preparation.
> > >>
> > >>When we listen to his ignorant and nonsensical remarks, which find
their
> > >way
> > >>into the public domain (he will not debate us publicly) we are
> > shocked at
> > >>the blatant stupidity of certain of these hare brained schemes.
> > Using the
> > >>Cis Lunar Mk 5 without adequate open circuit bailout is a fine
> > example of
> > >>this dyslexic reasoning. While we have made our opinion well known
> > >regarding
> > >>the use of electronic CCRs in an overhead environment (very risky,
but
> > >>sometimes all 18 wheels will miss the smiling possum) we certainly
would
> > >>give Stone and King their due with a green light. That is if they 
take
> > the
> > >>minimum precautions of a basic open circuit escape mechanism, at
least
> > for
> > >>the others in the project, if not themselves.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>When you consider the above and you weigh the measured careful
approach
> > of
> > >>the WKPP I hope you can understand why we do the things we do and
take
> > the
> > >>inflexible attitude that we do. The issue here is not hatred of
others,
> > but
> > >>an overriding concern for the safety and well being of  other humans
in
> > >what
> > >>otherwise is a very serious and dangerous enterprise.  Please view it
in
> > >>that regard and do not take umbrage of offense.
> > >>
> > >>Best wishes,
> > >>
> > >>Bill Mee
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > ----------
> >
> >
--
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