Dan
In many situations you must lead part of a dive. any instructor worth his
salt may do so and still observe the students.

Example in cave courses most of us lead the first dive to demonstrate
technique to students. this means we spend a lot of time looking under our
legs. During a course When the students mess up on pacing instructors will
take over the lead if needed to reestablish a good pace for the team.

In rebreather diving thesame is true. Ask George as he complained how I
mother henned him on the Halcyon. Yet I led parts of the dive.

The instructor has to determine moment by moment the place he needs to be to
provide the best learning experience, accomplish the training objectives and
to ensure the safety of the student. During the latter phases of a course
when I'm getting theswim pace up good, I usually lead and judge the pace at
a point that the students are working to stay up and at this time pull
emergency procedure drills on them .

Having taught diving in about every environment and application foreseeable
for more than 40 ACCIDENT free years, I think I may have learned a thing a
or two about how to do it. teaching like other skills in life requires doing
it to learn what works best. You are doing a good job of arm chair
quarterback but no real life experience

If an instructor just follows all the time it will limit the accomplishments
of the course . If he leads all the time the same is true.

I guess your scenario may work on a instructor who was totally unaware then
again that type of instructor would have an accident even if he followed his
students.


Respectfully yours,
Tom Mount
CEO IANTD World HQ
http://www.iantd.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>
To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; dive4wrk@pi*.co*
<dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
Cc: Techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; rebreather@nw*.co*
<rebreather@nw*.co*>
Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Promoting Rebreather Diving


>
>> Volker
>> What is your problem during a dive sometimes a instructor leads part of
it
>> and follows part of it at all times they give full attention to the
>> students. you obviously are not an instructor.
>>
>>
>> Respectfully yours,
>> Tom Mount
>
>Tom,
>
>If an instructor is being paid to teach a student on a rebreather, then the
>instructor should follow the students where he can observe "proper",  or
>"improper" behavior by the student. Not to mention being there if a
>catastrophic problem occurred---if the instructor was following, like they
>were paid to do, they would observe this in the first moments of the
crisis,
>and intercede to save the day....if the instructor was leading, they may
>well notice nothing until all they have left to do is the body recovery.
>
>Respectfully,
>Dan Volker
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Mount [mailto:TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:02 PM
>> To: Dan Volker; dive4wrk@pi*.co*; Jess Armantrout
>> Cc: Techdiver; rebreather@nw*.co*
>> Subject: Re: Promoting Rebreather Diving
>>
>>
>> Volker
>> What is your problem during a dive sometimes a instructor leads part of
it
>> and follows part of it at all times they give full attention to the
>> students. you obviously are not an instructor.
>>
>>
>> Respectfully yours,
>> Tom Mount
>> CEO IANTD World HQ
>> http://www.iantd.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dan Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>
>> To: dive4wrk@pi*.co* <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; Jess Armantrout
>> <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>> Cc: Techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; rebreather@nw*.co*
>> <rebreather@nw*.co*>
>> Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 10:16 AM
>> Subject: RE: Promoting Rebreather Diving
>>
>>
>> >Not to mention the fact that there are CCR Rebreather instructors out
>> there,
>> >of "considerable prominence", who pay very little attention to their
>> >rebreather students through a great many of their dives---often even
>> leading
>> >the dive, with the students following...I won't mention the name of the
>> most
>> >glaring example of this from a few months ago---but this appears
>> to be SOP.
>> >Alternatively, one hour with an instructor like Erol, George or JJ or
>> >Carmichael would be far more beneficial, and far from equivalent to one
>> hour
>> >with a great many of the CCR "big boys".
>> >Ability of the instructor goes far beyond a simplistic view of some
>> >"minimum" number of hours with some XYZ instructor---remember, McKnulty
>> >might be teaching CCR right now if he hadn't shown his true colors a few
>> >months ago.  What does the certification of the CCR instructor or SCR
>> >instructor mean??? This is a question that really bugs me. As I
>> see it now,
>> >unless its GUE, the instructor cert means nothing---you damn well better
>> >know about the ability of the instructor, and pay ZERO attention to his
>> >agency cert status ( GUE excepted ).
>> >
>> >Dan Volker
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: rebreather-request@nw*.co*
>> >> [mailto:rebreather-request@nw*.co*]On Behalf Of Jess Armantrout
>> >> Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 10:18 PM
>> >> To: dive4wrk@pi*.co*
>> >> Cc: rebreather@nw*.co*
>> >> Subject: Re: Promoting Rebreather Diving
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think my intentions with the post to Tom were not made
>> clear, a mistake
>> >> on my part.  After reading his post, I interpreted it as indicating
440
>> >> minutes was what was required (minimum) to become an IANTD CCR
>> diver.  My
>> >> intent was to ask Tom if he felt this was adequate training to do
>> >> mixed gas
>> >> exploration dives at wakulla which he answered quite well with a no.
>> >>
>> >> I can assure you, my training was much more that 440 minutes,
>> so I don't
>> >> understand the stone throwing comment.  I probably was put thru the
>> ringer
>> >> more than anybody on this list before I was allowed to take my machine
>> >> home.  Not many of you have had to do a dive with Vinnie...that is how
>> you
>> >> know you are ready.
>> >>
>> >> I also am not convinced that hours on a machine means dick, but I can
>> tell
>> >> you 440 minutes is not enough time to do mixed gas exploration dives
at
>> >> Wakulla, and on that point I think we all agree, so we can move on.
>> >>
>> >> I did not say the Halcyon was idiot proof, just the most idiot
>> >> proof.  I am
>> >> the one preaching fear of these things, remember?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I meant SCR, of course.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, proven reliability does have to happen in the environment in
>> >> which you
>> >> plan to dive, else how do you know what can go wrong.  My last
>> dive was a
>> >> triple scooter, triple stage 7500 line laying and surveying dive
>> >> with 5000'
>> >> in bad viz.  Can the Cis do that with no problems?  How do you
>> KNOW this
>> >> until you do it, and do you want to find out there is something you
>> >> overlooked about 75 minutes into the dive with 75 to go?  I
>> didn't think
>> >> so.
>> >>
>> >> So what is my point?  Too many people are being allowed to take
>> rebreather
>> >> classes that shouldn't be.  Too many people are diving rebreathers who
>> >> should be diving an aluminum 80 but their SAC is so poor they
>> >> need a "magic
>> >> carpet".  Too many instructors suck.
>> >>
>> >> How do you fix it?  I don't know.
>> >>
>> >> What do you guys suggest, status quo?
>> >>
>> >> Trout
>> >>
>> >> ----------
>> >> > From: LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>
>> >> > To: Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>> >> > Cc: rebreather@nw*.co*
>> >> > Subject: Re: Promoting Rebreather Diving
>> >> > Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 7:00 PM
>> >> >
>> >> > Jess,
>> >> > First of all, I am an advocate for safe rebreather training with no
>> >> > exception...  I don't care if you dive a Cis or a Halcyon or an
>> >> > Atlantis...
>> >> > Standards are just that and should not be compromised
>> >> regardless of how
>> >> > many hours a person has on mixed gas OC below XXX depth ...  I was
>> under
>> >> > the impression it was recommended 50 hours on the unit prior to
using
>> it
>> >> > deeper than 150 fsw.
>> >> >
>> >> > > First of all, comparing the Halcyon and Cis Lunar is kind of like
>> >> >comparing apples and cheese...not even in the same food group, and I
>> >> >think we would all agree to that.
>> >> >
>> >> > TRUE!
>> >> >
>> >> > >The Halcyon is the most user friendly, easy to transition from OC
to
>> >> >RB, idiot proof RB out there.  I think we all agree with that.
>> >> >
>> >> > NOT TRUE!  It is a rebreather and it can kill you.  The second you
>> >> > think otherwise, you are settimng the customer or the diver up for a
>> >> > fall.  All the courses I teach are in that vein.
>> >> >
>> >> > > Second, the Cis Lunar is completely 100% unproven in long
>> range mixed
>> >> >gas exploration, while George, JJ and Brent had already done numeous
>> >> >flawless dives on the Halcyon in Wakulla thus proving its'
reliablity.
>> >> >
>> >> > TRUE.  However, proven reliability does not need to happen
>> >> in caves.
>> >> > Everything must start somewhere, and open water at 400-500
>> feet the Cis
>> >> > has proven itself well.  That does not mean they can't do
>> the required
>> >> > time on the unit prior to using it in a cave.
>> >> >
>> >> > > I took a full IANTD CCR course from Erol and then made two more
>> >> >additional trips to Sth Florida for a total of 20 days of training.
>> >> >
>> >> > Errol is NOT a CCR instructor and can teach no such course.
>> >>  I hope you
>> >> > mean he put you through a full IANTD SCR course on the Halcyon...
>> >> >
>> >> > >At one time or the other, I did dives under the supervision
>> of George,
>> >> >JJ, Brent, Robert Carmicael, Bill Mee and Erol, any one of which
could
>> >> >have washed me out (love that military lingo!), and still can today.
>> >> >
>> >> > A civilian using someones "military lingo" is silly.  Besides no one
>> >> > talks like that anymore.
>> >> >
>> >> > > So, do you think that the number of hours on the machine is a
>> relevant
>> >> > > question in this scenario?
>> >> >
>> >> > YES, it does NOT matter how many hours you have OC, this is
>> >> NOT OC.  It
>> >> > does not matter how many dives you have in a cave or on mix...This
is
>> >> > different.  You can't tell the whole world they need to abide by a
>> >> > standard and you do something different.
>> >> > As I see it, you started doing deep cave dive with this
>> >> unit after 30
>> >> > or so hours on the unit.  You can do whatever you want, but practice
>> >> > what you preach.
>> >> >
>> >> > >  If I am wrong here, I will aplologize for any aspersions you
>> >> > > believe I may have cast.
>> >> >
>> >> > I love it when you are nice...
>> >> >
>> >> > > And, since I have already answered this question from you
>> privatey, I
>> >> >must assume you are just trying to stir up some shit.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not stirring shit, just pointing out that you were asking
>> >> someone else
>> >> > how many hours the W2 divers had and I was suggesting that people in
>> >> > glass houses should not get stoned.(or something like that)
>> >> >
>> >> > > If not, in what areas do you feel I am deficient and how would you
>> >> >help me to improve.
>> >> >
>> >> > If you are serious, you can come out here and take another class.
>> >> > Before you get your panties in a wad, I am kidding!!!
>> >> >
>> >> > Warm Regards from Hawaii
>> >> > Joseph Dituri, CEO Gallant Aquatic
>> >> > ================================================
>> >> > Paying $5 for training gives you $5 worth of training.
>> >> > There is no substitute for doing it right the first time.
>> >> > In this environment, you may never get a second chance.
>> >> > Check out our NEW web site at http://www.pixi.com/~dive4wrk
>> >>
>> >
>>
>

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