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John,
The key thing you forgot to mention is the idea that when the shit
hits the fan you don't want to be the one with the roll off (I
believe the exact quote is "what kind of sense does that make?"), is
the same reasoning the hose stuffing crowd makes when they say they
don't want to be without air in an out of air situation.
The donor is in control no matter what. He can deal with the problem.
If you're afraid you can't turn your valve back on (or breathe from
the backup off the power inflator), then you need to do the only
reasonable thing and use option #1 (don't dive).
Ken
> From: screwloo@is*.ne* (John Dunk)
> To: "Steve Schinke" <tekdive@ho*.co*>
> Cc: cavers@ca*.co*
> Subject: Re: right or left post
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:02:33 GMT
> On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:56:22 PDT, you wrote:
>
> >This is not a troll I mearly happened uppon an article which coinsided
> >with the way i was trained left post long hose. And I would like to the
> >DIR way justified. That way i can learn and make educated disions. I am
> >not hacking it just wanting it justified. I was trained that the left
> >post is correct to place the long hose and its the one you breath off
> >of. This way in case of a roll back you notice it and can correct it.
> >in addition it the reg you your mouth abter donating will always be on.
> >
> >see the article, written by Steve Gerrard.
>
> First let me say that Steve was my cave instructor from cavern through
> full cave. I respect his experience and his ability; in this case i
> have reached a different conclusion.
>
> >The Left Post
>
> >For the past seventeen years I been practicing and certainly teaching
> >the
> >procedure of breathing from the long hose. Your choices are simple.
> >Breath either the long or short hose. Both methods have their arguments
> >which has been a definititive discussion amongst all cave divers who use
> >the traditional and recreational style of double tanks with a permanent
> >dual outlet manifold. This argument has been going on for a long time
> >and
> >probably will continue into the next millenium.
> >
> >Best reasons for breathing off the long hose and designating it as
> >the give-away are:
> >
> > 1.Easy accessibility.
> > 2.Quick exchange.
> > 3.Dependable and reliable when you need it to work. (Prime example:
> >Going through restrictions with lots of
> > debris.)
>
> 100% agreement here.. read on
>
> >The Roll Off
> >
> >Today's most popular manifolds for cave diving is the "mirror image"
> >dual outlet D.I.N. valve system that are being
> >distributed through DiveRite, OMS, ScubaPro and others. That means the
> >turn knobs, handles, or hand wheels are
> >on the external sides of the tank/manifold system. Which means these
> >grips are exposed to the cave geological
> >environment. For the hand wheel located on your right shoulder, the knob
> >must turn counter clockwise, lefty loosy
> >......or.....with the direction of force that strikes the object. Which
> >means the outlet valve will constantly remain
> >open allowing a clear and constant flow of air/gas to the regulator.
> >Great! No problems! No obstruction of flow of
> >air/gas. For the hand wheel located on your left shoulder, the knob has
> >the opposite affect. For when it is striked
> >by an object such as a ceiling of a bedding plane or other low laying
> >formations, the outlet valve will eventually be
> >closed or shut down. This simply means .......stoppage, blockage or
> >cessation of the air/gas supply. Bad news! Not
> >good.
> >
> >How do you deal with this nuisance or nagging problem? Simple. Place
> >your primary regulator on that "left post".
> >You..... breathing constantly on your long hose from the first stage
> >attached to the left side of the maniflod on your
> >back, you have created the "alarm", the safety device in catching this
> >potential, critical problem. When it becomes
> >closed, you calmly reach back with your left hand and turn the valve
> >back on and reopen the flow of air/gas.
>
> This is true.. right up to the point where you hand off the long hose.
> after that, you are in the well-known situation of having shut of the
> alarm & gone back to sleep..it ain't gonna ring again, even if you're
> Real Late.
> Ok.. reason #2 is reinforced by the odds as quoted further in the
> piece.. read on
>
> This
> >problem only evolves into an uncommon, annoying situation. Anytime,
> >everytime this happens, you are aware of it
> >and quickly, efficiently you correct the vexation. Personally, this
> >perplexed flaw of mechanics has occurred to me
> >about seven times. Not enough times to condemn the design or engineering
> >of the mechanical device but enough
> >times to merit a distinct course of action in a consistent fashion .....
> >breathe off that "left post"!
>
> I'll condemn the engineering.. it cost not a penny extra to cut those
> manifolds with opposing threads.. and if you ignore the crap about
> backing off the valve 1/4 turn, then there's also no confusion about
> which way is on.. if you get no air, whichever way the valve turns is
> on by definition.
>
> >During the past year or so, I have become aware of a changing preference
> >with the location of the primary
> >regulator located on the manifold. It seems there is is a growing trend
> >among the general population of cave divers,
> >who share the same basic equipment philosophy that I do, that breathing
> >off the right post is the best location. The
> >reason is this; if "sharing air" through a restriction with the long
> >hose attached to the "left post" and a "roll off"
> >occurs you just created a more stressful predicament with the the
> >"out-of- air" diver. A bad situation. To answer
> >the question yes or no, I agree that a worse circumstance exists in that
> >particular emergency. But I challenge the
> >obvious based simply on the "odds"
> >First, what are the chances you will be sharing air with a truly
> >"out-of-air diver"? Probably very slim. Never in the
> >history of cave diving has their been a fatality involving a suddenly
> >"out-of- air" cave diver and, particularly, while
> >sharing air out of an underwater cave. (An accident in 1975 at "Hole In
> >The Wall" cave system in Jackson County,
> >Florida involved a certified cave diver taking a non- cave diver into
> >the cave. The non-cave diver did not wear a
> >wetsuit thus causing rapid air consumption going in because of
> >hypothermia thus causing both to share air and
> >eventually both run out of air in their haste to exit.) How often to you
> >ever hear of a sudden "out-of-air" emergency
> >in cave diving? Unlikely. Then, on top of that, what are the odds of you
> >sharing air through a minor restriction? The
> >"odds" drop much more. Then, having a complete roll off which results in
> >stopping the flow air/gas? Come on! The
> >odds of this problem occurring is like
> >....................uhhhh................... the Suwannee River drying
> >up. It ain't going
> >to happen folks! By the way, practicing sharing air emergencies through
> >minor restrictons (Devil's Ear to Devil's
> >Eye - prime example) in cave courses does not count.
>
> ok, here's where the odds come into play, and the decision tree as I
> see it.
> Your variables are:
> 1) one diver has an out of air emergency
> 2) no one has an out of air emergency
> 3) the diver with a working air supply has a rolloff
> 4) the diver with a working air supply does NOT have a rolloff
>
> if1) occurs, and the donated air is on the right post, that diver WILL
> have air when they need it most.This is guaranteed, no matter how much
> contact is made during the exit.. his post will NOT roll off.
> if2) occurs, then the primary diver does not have to deal with an
> interruption of his air supply.. the reg he is breathing will not roll
> off.
> if 3) occurs, he is in the best position to deal with it.. he knows
> immediately that it has occurred, and can easily reach back & re-open
> it.. he doesn't need to communicate to his buddy there is a problem.
> if rollof has occurred at the point of handoff, then he has at least 1
> good breath in him before he hands off to deal with the problem.. a
> better situation than the guy whose reg suddenly developed a problem,
> mebbe right after that last exhale.
> if 4) occurs.. everybody's safe, regardless..
>
> IMHO, perhaps the best scenario, when doing s-drills is to breath the
> right post, and always assume the left post HAS rolled off if you must
> share air..
> In other words..take a good breath, hand off the reg in your mouth,
> retrieve your backup (it IS retrievable no-hands, right?),reach back &
> turn on/check the left post, & THEN take that first breath..
>
>
>
> Basing this argument strictly on
> >"odds" of what is a worse situation, the consensus
> >would have to agree that the "left post roll off" is greatly in favor of
> >occurring during your routine cave diving
> >compared to an emergency sharing air going through a minor restriction.
> >Judging by this comparison, then it would
> >be common sense to constantly breath off the "left post".
>
> i don't think so.. if the odds are greatly in favor of the rolloff
> occurring during a routine cave dive, then it seems the proper course
> would be to ensure a continuous air supply during the routine dive..
> that means breathing the right post.
> BTW, I agree with Ken here.. the best solution is don't hit the
> ceiling.
>
> >Another arguement is this. When breathing off the "right post", with
> >every breath, minute and restriction you must
> >continually monitor your left valve/regulator for terminating of
> >air/gas. Should a diver require air/gas and you give
> >away your long hose from the "right post" then you must hope that your
> >left post/regulator is on. If not, then you
> >must turn it on .....after.....giving away your working regulator. Does
> >that make sense?
>
> to me, absolutely.. you can be SURE you get one full breath before
> you give the sucker away.. you CANT be sure your buddy got one before
> Murphy tapped him on the shoulder.
>
> >If sharing air/gas with the long hose, left post through a minor
> >restriction occurs, the diver with air must ensure that
> >the left post remains open at all times. A ceiling rub would require the
> >doner diver to recheck the left post.
>
> Yep, and if the donating diver DOESNT check it, or doesn't feel/notice
> the ceiling contact, the OOA diver is screwed.
>
> Pretty
> >simple, you are sharing air. Make sure the valves stay open! This is
> >only neccessary in a sharing air/gas through a
> >minor restriction emergency. All other times (99.99999%) it just takes
> >care of itself.
> >Some cave divers will argue that with the long hose on the right post is
> >longer and easier to work with. What are
> >we talking about? Come on, six inches? If that kinda of length is
> >critical to your survival, then maybe that reflects a
> >more personal concern or problem with you. Get a longer hose if that is
> >going to help you.
>
> I agree here.. 6 inches only makes a difference in certain *very*
> personal situations, which i wont discuss here ;)
>
> >Concerning pressure gauge and inflator hoses. That remains a personal
> >preference. Whether you split the hoses
> >between the two first stages or both on one regulator probably is
> >dictated by the style of first stage and length of
> >the hoses. So many options to consider and decisions to make. Another
> >debate, another day!
>
> Hmmmm, this just made me think... seems like pressure gauge should be
> on the non-rolloff hose ( right post).. mine isn't set up that way, i
> think i need to change it..any input from those who HAVE thought about
> it? maybe this list is good for something after all ;)
>
> >(Note: I wish to personally "thank" Bil Phillips of Vancouver, Canada
> >who I have the pleasure to work with
> >teaching safe cave diving at Aquatech/Villas DeRosa for his valuable
> >input. We both share the same philosophy of
> >safe and smart cave diving.)
> >
> >
> >By the way check out cenotes.com
> >
> >
> >>From: "Ken Sallot" <kens@ac*.ne*>
> >>To: cavers@ca*.co*,
> >> techdiver@aquanaut.com,
> >> "Steve Schinke" <tekdive@ho*.co*>
> >>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:31:03 +0000
> >>Subject: Re: right or left post
> >>
> >>This is easy, but I'll assume it's not a troll and answer your
> >>question anyway because it's a very important question.
> >>
> >>I'll just explain the most obvious, and important reason, why the
> >>long hose comes off the right post.
> >>
> >>The left post can roll off (and sometimes does if you have poor
> >>technique and fail to pay attention to it). If you're in an air
> >>sharing situation (your buddy or yourself are out of air and one of
> >>you is breathing the long hose), you do not want the long hose to
> >>roll off; the guy who is out of air already had that happen to him
> >>once, suddenly it happens again, he's probably going to panic. Plus,
> >>if it rolls off, he can't easily get to your manifold to turn it back
> >>on.
> >>
> >>If the short hose is on the left post, that's the one you're
> >>breathing in an out of air situation. If it rolls off on you then you
> >>can easily reach back and turn it on, unlike the poor guy in front
> >>of you breathing from your long hose. If you have some other problem
> >>with it, (or are in a restriction where you can't reach the valve,
> >>etc), you can pick up your wings inflator hose and breathe off of
> >>that (because your power inflator hose should be on the right post
> >>where it won't roll off) by depressing the exhaust and power inflate
> >>buttons at the same time (don't believe me? try it. I swam out from
> >>the keyhole once trying it after GMIII told me to do this, and sure
> >>enough he was right, it took some practice, but it can be done).
> >>
> >>Lastly, to prevent rolloffs from happening, don't hit the ceiling,
> >>and check your valves whenever you go through restrictions.
> >>
> >>Ken
> >>
> >>> From: "Steve Schinke" <tekdive@ho*.co*>
> >>> To: cavers@ca*.co*, techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >>> Subject: right or left post
> >>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:58:42 PDT
> >>
> >>> can somebody please justify the use of the right post for the long
> >hose
> >>> to me.
> >>>
> >>> STEVE
> >>>
> >
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> John Dunk o
> Lake City,Fl o
> screwloo@is*.ne* ____o_____
>
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