Hey Rich,

This is the only comment I'll make on this thread, so I'll make it 
a nice long one.

I have no idea what it takes to do a 150 minute bottom time at 300' 
then deco from that in 69F water. I can't even imagine 6 hours.

My "biggest cave dive" to date was only around 200 minutes bottom 
time at 85' average in 72F water, and it was exhausting mentally. 
Thankfully deco wasn't so bad.

To my knowledge, the only cave diver on that team that has approached 
that kind of duration/bottom time is Mark Long. However, my 
understanding is he has not done anything remotely like that at 
depths found in Wakulla.

As for the rest of their team, the only one who has been any further 
then 2500' in a deep cave is Heinerith, 11 years ago, on a lucky day. 
And he's nowhere near in as good physical shape as he should be to 
attempt that again (when I hear from his former students how their 
gas consumption was better then his in a cave class, well, that tells 
you something).

To my knowledge only 4 people standing on the face of this planet 
know what it takes to go 14,000' in any cave, and only 3 know what 
it takes to go 18,000' in any cave. Conceptually speaking, I can't 
even fathom a 360 minute bottom time at 300', and what it takes 
mentally to be more then 3 miles from an air source (not including 
deco). In all honesty, the fact that this past year has established 
three world records in Wakulla by the same lead team really amazes 
me. After their first 14,000' dive I asked Trey on the phone how 
much further he thought they could go, only to have them tack on 
almost an additional mile not 5 weeks later. There is no question in 
my mind Trey, Brent and JJ are the best cave divers living on the 
planet (boys, don't let this go to your head).

The fact that one of the three guys who's done it was the former 
world record holder (he was only beat by himself), another of the 
three was the former US record holder for distance from air (only to 
have been beaten by Isler and the first of the three mentioned), and 
the third guy is just seriously dedicated to this sport and the 
effort involved, goes a long way towards explaining it; they're the 
guys who have the drive, dedication, and experience doing it.

As for producing a 3D map, I truly wish W2 well in developing this, 
but the reality is I don't think they'll provide that much useful 
data; I doubt they will get off of the park property because I 
honestly don't think they're capable of pulling off the kind 
of distance necessary at 300'.

Rich, you have plenty of deep diving experience, and you know that at 
depth there are certain psychological aspects that come into play; 
gas consumption and decompression obligations being two of the major 
ones. The rebreather will supposedly solve the gas consumption 
obligation, but in all honesty will probably produce the 
psychological concern about failure. I hear that Paul Heinerith has 
already experienced 6 distinct failures with his unit, I'm sure that 
is something that will be sitting in the back of his mind while he's 
"walling out Wakulla".

The main conduit in Wakulla Springs is down. I hear it's 5' of 
visibility. I have only done 3 dives in A tunnel (well 4, but 1 was 
swimming, and only a little way to grab a sample). What I can tell 
you from my 3 dives in there is that it is like diving in the ocean, 
except you need to follow the line to get out. You don't see walls or 
the ceiling. Occasionally a rock outcropping will pop up that you 
need to duck and avoid. My last dive in A tunnel was in a whopping 
20' of visibility and the most vivid image in my memory was seeing 
the huge rock outcropping pop up in front of me. The main difference 
however is that unlike in the ocean, you can't just ascend if the 
shit hits the fan, and if you get off the line, you're dead.

In cave diving, if you get off of the line, and in poor visibility, 
you're kind of screwed if you can't find it again. I state this 
because you are not a cave diver, to my knowledge you have only done 
a couple of "cave dives", one of which in a lava tube nearly killed 
you (from the description I got from you on this subject). Most caves 
do not have passages bigger then 20', so even in real lousey 
visibility it should be fairly simple to find your way to the line. 
"A" tunnel is much bigger then this. 

Now, there are many other systems out there that have poor 
visibility, and considerable distances. Cathedral for example is 
really similar to A tunnel, giant conduit, 180' deep in some spots, 
and at 10,000' Exley "weenied" (I say this in the sarcastic sense, 
anyone who pushes a cave 10,000' out solo, or even 10,000' out solo 
down a syphon like he did at Chips, doesn't deserve the "weenie" 
name). My understanding is that Cathedral currently still "only 
sits" at 10,000'. It's huge, a major water artery, and no one has 
pushed it further. If they're trying to do long range exploration, 
this would seem the perfect place (you only need to go half the 
distance).

OK, so, what is the real motivitating factor here? If it is indeed 
to test this mapper, why has it not been used in other places (such 
as Cathedral)? For that matter, who is going to pilot the mapper into 
the outer reaches of the cave? Who on the their team has been more 
then 10,000' in ANY cave? How about 9,000'? 8,000'? 7,000'? 6,000'? 
At any depth? And, if the mapper really works, and all they want to 
do is produce a real good 3D map, why not have it used by the guys 
who are actively diving there that know the place and what it takes 
to get the job done?

If their intention is to continue exploration in Wakulla Springs, my 
understanding is exploration is currently being conducted by an 
accomplished and capable team. Why displace those that are getting 
the appropriate results? Besides, my understanding is there really 
isn't much to explore that's near 6,000', and the most common 
"complaint" I have heard recently is it takes a tripple stage now to 
go find a place to lay line (BTW, a tripple stage puts you out over a 
mile at 300', a distance at depth that no one on their team has 
even been).

Please do not misunderstand me, I do not wish to see anyone from the 
Wakulla 2 team get hurt, but I really find their "motivating factor" 
suspect. I do not believe their intention is to actually map out the 
cave, but rather to go and masturbate for self gratification in deep 
tunnel and beat their chests in National Geographic.

Believe it or not, I have respect for some of the members of the 
Wakulla 2 project. I may disagree with them on many issues (such as 
hiding cave), but there are a couple of members of the team that are 
reasonably accomplished cave divers. However, there is not a single 
member of that team that is an accomplished deep long range cave 
diver in the poor visibility conditions that are found in Wakulla 
Springs. The only guys in the world that are doing that sort of 
diving are with the WKPP and are currently doing that kind of diving.

One of my favorite places to dive is a place called Manatee Springs. 
I like it because you can do a two-three hour bottom time and see a 
lot of cave. However, the number one complaint I hear from people 
about Manatee is "that place is a shit hole". Indeed, the visibility 
rarely exceeds 30', but when it does go blue, and it sometimes does, 
it's a gorgeous site that makes people say "WOW!". "A" tunnel in 
Wakulla, the tunnel you have to take to get anywhere, currently has 
much worse visibility then Manatee. 

I haven't seen any of the members of the USDCT diving Manatee lately, 
and the only member of that team that I know has done ANYTHING is 
Mark Long. If these guys won't dive Manatee, why would they want to 
dive Wakulla?

So, they're lacking the experience for deep cave diving. Do they 
think that technology will make up for it? Come on, you've been 
diving long enough to know better...

So what exactly are they doing there? 

At any rate, you said it best when you said "We'll see in January". I 
just hope that no one feels that their "ability" is under the 
microscope to the point that someone gets hurt, or worse, killed.

Now, having typed this long diatribe, I'm kindly keeping myself out 
of this thread. I have said my peace.

Ken

> From:          "Richard Pyle" <deepreef@bi*.bi*.ha*.or*>
> To:            "John R. Rose" <rose@cs*.sc*.ed*>
> Cc:            <RLatulip@ao*.co*>, <kirvine@sa*.ne*>,
<techvid@ne*.co*>,
>                <cavers@ca*.co*>, <techdiver@aquanaut.com>,
>                <rebreather@nw*.co*>
> Subject:       RE: Re: "Pull!"
> Date:          Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:44:36 -1000

> > You seem to have missed the point of our answer.
> > Our point is that your's was not a meaningful question.
> 
> That's what I meant about how I can understand why you guys see it as a
> trick question.
> 
> > The fact that you are able to pose such a question
> > without collapsing into a fit of laughter points
> > out that you are a true innocent. I find that touching.
> 
> Meaning, that I am right:  you do see it as simply impossibile that they
> might succeed.  Fair enough.  Time will tell.
> 
> > There are too many cynics in this world. ;-)
> 
> And I among them.....;-)
> 
> > However, I am still surprised that even being as far away as Hawaii
> > you would be so out of touch with the reality of what is involved in
> > these types of dives to even for the moment imagine that Stone's group
> > of vagrants will do anything other than litter Wakulla park.
> 
> Like I said, time will tell.  My concern, however, is that no matter what
> happens, it will be deemed by the "usual suspects" as a failure.  What
> really remains to be seen is to what extent such a conclusion will be based
> on fact, vs. how much reality-twisting will be required to build that case.
> My best guess is that they will achieve their goal, which is a 3-D map.  But
> will not succeed in "tripling" your current maximum distance, which they
> would never dream of doing, since the infamous "triple" comment was made
> back when the end of the line was at 6 grand. Obviously, you gus have
> already tripled your own distance.
> 
> > What really has me puzzled is why you bothered to ask this question at
> > all? You are not a cave diver and are not directly involved with usdct,
> > at least not to my knowledge. Is this just idle curiosity?
> 
> A little bit curiosity, but mostly my usual "game" with George.  Trouble is,
> I made the mistake of initiating the game at a time when I really have more
> important things to do (I usually only play the game when I am bored).
> Moreover, George isn't really playing much, and some of the pinch hitters
> (not you) aren't following the established rules of engagement, which takes
> most of the fun out of it.
> 
> Thanks for the exchange.
> 
> Aloha,
> Rich
> 
> 
"I can't imagine anything more destructive for Gore's political 
future than to talk about the information superhighway, and then to 
have the largest wreck in history on the first of January, 2000." 
            - House Speaker Newt Gingrich

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