>When I drop my weight, I can indeed float. When I am using steel, I 
     >have a drysuit on. In either event, the whole rig gets dropped if 
     >that is what it takes, but the eighties float.
     
     So, I have this straight: common horse since says, if you can't stay 
     on the surface with your rig, drop it!  No argument from me.  If you 
     are diving steel, your dry suit is your redundant flotation.  If you 
     are diving wet, your rely on your weight belt + al80's.  That makes 
     since.
     
     >Robert - why are we talking about the surface? Let's talk about at 
     >the bottom, when I need to get up. I do the same - drop my weight, or 
     >use the drysuit if the wings fail. 
     
     My normal rig changes depending on the dive i do.  
     
     i.e. 
     
     1. diving with wife: transpac, wreck wings, al80, maybe a 3mil.  no 
     problem getting to the surface.
     
     2. diving warm water extended stay: transpac, "super wings" right 
     inflator disconnected and tied down out of the way.   steel 120's or 
     al80's with manifold.  Depends on the profile.  stage, travel, deco 
     al80's or al40's again depending.  6mil w/farmer john
     
       a. With this rig, steel 120's, I will be getting with a friend and 
     testing to see if I can get to the surface from 200fsw with out the 
     aid of my bc.  That will be later next month.  If I can, then I don't 
     need the super wings.
     
     3. diving extended where thermal protection needed: dive 
     dry...dive-rite classic wings w/transpac.  The problem is I HATE 
     diving dry.  It's not comfortable.  People say get this dry suit, get 
     that dry suit... The two dry suits I own now are on the shelf.  I 
     don't like diving them.  And at $1000+ a pop, how many more do I need 
     to buy before I find one I like to dive?
     
     >Let's go even further - back to the boat : why do we not have a 
     >balanced rig in the first place? 
     
     Can you please define what you mean my balanced?  Do you mean, weight 
     balanced out?  If so, then, when you look at most people on a boat, 
     you will see them bending forward slightly to maintain there balance.  
     I think the first thing is stand up straight on land with your rig.  
     Can you maintain your balance?  On a boat, in all honesty, I have not 
     paid much attention - my focus is, is my gear right, am i ready for 
     the dive, is my buddy ready for the dive... Next trip out, will check 
     that out.  
     
     Don't get me wrong, I'll adapt to different situations, with different 
     gear.  The point being select the right tool for the job.  Know what 
     the tool can do, and what the tool can't do...
     
     I do think Tom is right.  There are some people who will take a 
     persons word, this is the way to go.  I'm one of those people who will 
     take that persons word, then test it.  If the results are duplicated, 
     then great, if not, gather more data.  For example, my wife will 
     listen to me when I tell her something about her rig.  She does not 
     question it.  Her point is to have fun, and not spend a lot of time 
     thinking about, light on the left, light on the right, light on the 
     butt, long hose short hose.  Me, I'm just the opposite.  The person 
     who taught me cave, who will remain nameless (I don't want to get him 
     involved in this discussion)  Told me to breath off the long hose, 
     sounded strange to me, until I tried it, and was able to determine 
     that was  superior.
     
     Testing is not bad.  There is a lot of things you do, that I have 
     adopted, there are other things I am gathering data on.  Seeing if I 
     can get to the surface without the aid of bc or dry suit, is one of 
     those test.  The point being, I will think out the test, there will be 
     someone with me who I trust, and I will be ready to go to my bc if the 
     test fails.  If I get to the surface, can I tread water.
     
     Well, I've raised more points then I intended.  Main points being.
     
     1.  Can you get to the surface?
     2.  Can you stay on the surface? 
     3.  Are your prepared to ditch your rig, camera and all?
     4.  Are you balanced on the boat?
     5.  Do you test knowledge?
     6.  Do you know why something is the way it is?  Do you care?
     
     Dive Safe
     Robert
     
     


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Fw: cylinders-BC's etc
Author:  "Katherine V. Irvine" <kirvine@sa*.ne*> at Internet
Date:    7/21/98 8:18 PM


When I drop my weight, I can indeed float. When I am using steel, I have 
a drysuit on. In either event, the whole rig gets dropped if that is 
what it takes, but the eighties float.
     
Robert - why are we talking about the surface? Let's talk about at the 
bottom, when I need to get up. I do the same - drop my weight, or use 
the drysuit if the wings fail. 
     
Let's go even further - back to the boat : why do we not have a balanced 
rig in the first place? 
     
     
     
Robert.Lockard@nc*.na*.mi* wrote: 
> 
>      OK, time for my nickel on the subject. 
> 
>      1. Can you make it to the surface without your bc?
>      2. If you can make it to the surface, can you stay there with out your 
>      bc.
>      3. George, has your bc ever failed, and you had to tread water with
>      out the aid of flotation?  If this did happen to you, how long did you 
>      have to tread water, how tired where you on a scale of 1 - 10?  10
>      being exhausted.  What was your tank, backpack configuration?
>        a. This has never happened to me, so I plan on trying it in the 
>      pool.
>        b. If I can stay on the surface for 20min with out tiring, then my 
>      rig (tank configuration) is right for me.  If not, then I need to
>      change my rig.
> 
>      Dive Safe
>      Robert
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
> Subject: Re: Fw: cylinders-BC's etc
> Author:  "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> at Internet 
> Date:    7/18/98 5:07 PM
> 
> Beggin your pardon there is not a single reference to bondage wings in my 
> post. George have you learned how to read yet
> 
> Second George have you ever even dived 98's let alone swam them without a BC 
> or 85's as I stated I can swim both. Also if you read the post I told people 
> to practice with whatever cylinders they are wearing so they can learn what 
> they can or can not do. otherwise they can become educated about what they
> can do personally first hand in a non threatening manor. Or do have a 
> problem with education .
> 
> George I have rescued more divers in my career than you ever will. and I 
> have also recovered a lot of divers as in the 60's and 70's I was the one 
> that always got called in to do those things.
> 
> 
> Tom
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katherine V. Irvine <kirvine@sa*.ne*> 
> To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; techdiver 
> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 7:52 PM 
> Subject: Re: Fw: cylinders-BC's etc 
> 
> 
> >Tom, this is one of many completely stupid and irresponsible pieces of 
> >nonsense you have posted to the lists. I just did a body recovery on a 
> >student of IANTD's who was wearing these riciculous bondage wings that 
> >did not work, and we are still searching for the bodies of two more
> >victims who were wearing steel tanks in the ocean with wetsuits and one 
> >of them , the one who had the problems that precipited the TRIPPLE
> >fatality, was using your beloved bondage wings. 
> >
> >  You say "nobody dives" aluminium in the ocean. Well, Tom, I am not 
> >exactly "nobody", and that is what I dive with a wetsuit. The reason,
> >which has obviously escaped you in all your years of diving, is that the 
> >tanks have a 3 pound swing  (each) with air, and about a -1 + 3 with the 
> >gas I usually dive . I wear a weightbelt and or a cannister light to
> >offset the max positive of the tanks. If I have a problem with this, I 
> >drop the weightbelt - just like I learned in PADI Open Water One. What 
> >do I drop with steel? Why not dive a balanced rig in the first place? 
> >Why do you not understand this ?
> >
> >  With cold water , or deep water which is likely to be cold at the
> >bottom, a drysuit is the right choice, and with that steel can be used, 
> >or aluminum with a wedge or steel plate, but then you have to try
> >walking around a pitching boat with heavy steel tanks - NOT TOO SMART,
> >not a well thought out recommendation from somebody who pretends to know 
> >what they are doing. Clearly this is not the case. I have to admit to
> >having done this jmyself, but that was because when I got called to
> >recover the body of the last fatality here I only had my hundreds mixed 
> >and ready to go. My aluminums had been already used looking for more of 
> >yours in Palm Beach.
> >
> >Steel tanks with a wetsuit are too heavy , to negative, and too
> >dangerous, as the track record is now showing. Adding more convolution, 
> >clustery and cluter to a rig with more bc's, double bc's, the totally
> >ridiculous bungeed wings ( I guess nobody has yet informed you that the 
> >manufacturer does not recommend bungying the wings) is an accelleration 
> >of task loading, drag, confusion and represents a mindset that is
> >incompatible with underwater activities, otherwise known as a "stroke". 
> >
> > One would think that for once in your long life you wild learn
> >something, like when your idiot pal Jim ("I can't count my dead buddies 
> >on one hand") Lockwood left Frank Martz in Blue Hole Number Four; Frank 
> >was wearing 104's with a wetsuit ( and diving deep air, and diving with 
> >a stroke). That was 30 years ago. One would think that with all of your 
> >recommending of the bondage wings from your vast excperience you would 
> >have noticed that the inflator does not work and was recalled, and that 
> >the bungees are dangerous. I know of three deaths involving
> >non-functioning bungy wings, and you claim to be the big "expert" - 
> >expert my ass.
> >
> > You go on in this post to recommend putting a "quick release" buckle on 
> >a harness, one of the single dumbest things you have ever come up with . 
> >We do not allow that or any plastic on a harness, and for good reason - 
> >we do not want our gear to go one way, us the other (duh), and we are
> >diving caves with ceilings - using this in the ocean with no ceiling 
> >borders are mental retardation. You then "challenge" - this is a big 
> >thing with you - anyone to try a rescue with hundreds and stages. Try
> >Jarrod Jablonski - he did it at Wakulla with three stages on the diver, 
> >and he stripped his gear and revived him on the surface. I "challenge" 
> >you to recommend a piece of gear that works, a method that is sound, or 
> >anything that makes any sense what so ever - you can't do it.
> >
> >  You also neglect to mention that another one of your famous
> >"standards" which has been implicated in several other deaths of late, 
> >is the business of trying to identify what gas is in what bottle by the 
> >position the bottle is worn in. This is dangerously stupid, and its
> >track reocrd says so.
> >
> >  You say "this is not a bands name post " - BULLSHIT - it is your
> >recommendation of everything OMS makes and sells. Tom, when one uses an 
> >OMS steel backplate ( -5-6 lbs ), OMS tanks ( -the weight of the gas ), 
> >and any other gear , like a light ( -7 lbs), one is starting the dive at 
> >minus 24 to minus 30 pounds - only a real asshole would do that,
> >recommend that , or try that. When one uses the aluminum with an
> >aluminum backplate everything but the gas is ditchable, and that leaves 
> >you minus 6 with air, minus 2.5 with 50% Helium . 2.5 pounds. Not 30 , 
> >2.5. THINK FOR ONCE .
> >
> >You last line, which reads "from experience instead of arm chair theory" 
> >is a classic - how the deaths, Tom - what do you call that ? How about
> >MY experience , Tom? How about that? I can make sense - you don't. Quit 
> >recommending dangerous nonsense and get with the program - the program 
> >is doing things properly and safely, not convoluting, making excuses,
> >bullshitting, and talking out of your ass - the fact that you continue 
> >to recommend and make the same mistakes is appalling.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >******** the uninteligable slop below is the post I refer to *********** 
> >
> >
> >
> >Fw: cylinders-BC's  =
> >wet. Yet I rarely see anyone in the ocean diving deep on Aluminum =
> >cylinders. Including me I use the OMS double 85's and love them. If fact 
> >=
> >Aluminum 80's would be my last choice of diving cylinders. 
> >=20
> >How many people on this list have dived either OMS double 98's (not =
> >pressed steel 95's) or OMS 85's. Those of you who have most likely can = 
> >report that you can dive them even in event of BC failure. I have =
> >practiced this with both and have no problem with a 3 mil wet suit. = 
> >(using Al 40's for stages)=20
> >=20
> >In fresh water with a 3 mil suit and no cylinders or other gear I can = 
> >lay on the bottom of a pool, so you can say I'm negative buoyant , Yet = 
> >swimming these cylinders is doable, With steel 45's  it would be =
> >difficult and I would definitely recommend a backup BC inthis event. >=20 
> >On the subject of redundant BC's if a failure occurs with any tank =
> >configuration double 80's or whatever the second  BC may save your life 
> >=
> >or the life of a buddy who has had a BC failure. So although I do not = 
> >always use a second BC when diving wet I certainly support the logic = 
> >behind its use. For an instructor who must make a rescue it could prove 
> >=
> >to be a valuable asset.
> >=20
> >I see discussions on using the lift bag as a redundant BC , on ascent or 
> >=
> >on the bottom it will work , but how about during a rapid descent in  = 
> >deep water, how easily will you pull out the bag hook it up to a reel = 
> >and deploy the lift bag, some of you should attempt to practice this = 
> >during a rapid descent and see how well it works, then come back and = 
> >give you views on it s use as a reliable backup BC.  plus what if the = 
> >reel jams or the lift bag dumps, what is the reliability factor in this 
> >=
> >method?=20
> >=20
> > Also have a buddy get totally negative and simulate a rescue using just 
> >=
> >your BC or a lift bag. I plan to experiment with this some myself, due = 
> >to a conservation I had with one of our instructors this morning. =
> >Remember this has to be doable at a high rate of descent trying to = 
> >manage yourself and your buddy. Also factor in that you are fully = 
> >negative at first in order to catch the descending diver. So :\
> >1. Catch the buddy
> >2. Make contact
> >3. Stabilize buoyancy
> >4. Start ascent
> >5. on the surface remain stable
> >Note! check your gas consumption during this drill.=20 
> >=20
> >I suggest we all go out and experiment with this before drawing =
> >conclusions about what does or does not work. and what works under what 
> >=
> >circumstance?
> >=20
> >Note this is not a brands or no brands post this is a lets see what =
> >really works post and then for those who are willing to do the practices 
> >=
> >a discussion of the results. Any takers?? 
> >=20
> >Second practice drill while using continuos webbing (no quick releases) 
> >=
> >have a buddy simulate being unconsciousness , while in doubles and two = 
> >stages. Remove the stages, and doubles on the surface as well as your = 
> >own as in making a real life rescue. To make this more real simulate =
> >mouth to mouth as you are doing it., 
> >=20
> >Those of you who have QD's should also practice this skill. 
> >=20
> >This is a good basic buddy rescue skill and we should all remain = 
> >proficient in it.
> >=20
> >You should also time your results and bear in mind that if the diver has 
> >=
> >no pulse  or it is an AGE, the time this is accomplished in is critical. 
> >=20
> >The above skill is required in IANTD trimix courses now adays so I have 
> >=
> >some knowledge of how well it works in both applications.=20 
> >=20
> >Remember try these first and then talk about it from experience instead 
> >=
> >of arm chair theory
> >=20
> >Tom
> >Tom
> >
> >
> 
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