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Jim Cobb wrote: > Tom, I agree with you that it is up to the individual to decide the > appropriate risks one should undertake in ones life. But the difference > here is the instructor/student relationship. How do you know if the risks > justify the benefits if you don't know what the risks are? It is up to > the instructor to teach, inform and guide the student through this > process. Yes, thats true. I'm just not ready to absolve the students completely for something as simplely understood as bouyancy control. Its not rocket science, and shouldn't be a problem when you are in a tech class. > And until the teaching process is over the instructor has a moral and > contractual imperative to make sure the student survies the teaching > process or has the intellectual foresight and balls to cut the student > loose if that the student is not capable of the rigors of the process. > > To do otherwise is downright criminal. Student fees, equipment sales > profits, ego and other factors are no excuse. You are right. In fact the duty to rescue another diver comes before the duty of an instructor to his students. Its like a subset :-) > > > In this light the instructor must know what equipment works and what does > not, what techniques work and what do not. The instructors primary > objective is to make sure his student lives through the learning > experience even at the cost of the instructors life. > > If you dumbass instructors can't handle this, then get the hell out of > the business. > > I am not the most experienced diver on this list by a long shot but even > I can see that certain things just don't work. Not haveing the primary > and secondary buoyancy to handle multiple steel bottles does not take a > rocket scientist brain to figure out. Why can't these instructors figure > this out? No, Tom, somebody had to pay for this stupidity. The student > has already paid, and I'm afraid that the buck does not rightfully stop > there. I never meant to say all involved shouldn't shoulder their fair share of blame, legally and morally. I concentrated on the student's share. Sometimes in a discussion with some of the Florida Elite I stoop to their ways and get way extremist. > And ultimately it is you and I who will pay in both governmental > intervention and insurance. Thanks to a few stupid, ignorant morons who > call themselves instructors. > Very true. Tom > On 7/3/98 1:25 PM Thomas A. Easop wrote: > > >Katherine V. Irvine wrote: > > > ><snip> > > > >> You tell me: if at least two of those dead people recently had weighting > >> and buoyancy problems, who is at fault? Who is at fault if this > >> ridiculous combination continues to be ENFORCED , even after the recent > >> spate of accidents. > > > ><snip> > > > >Kathy (or Ian): > > > >As I have said in private threads with you, the students are at fault. The > >students who take these classes are adult divers, presumably with experience. > >Buoyancy control is one of the last skills still taught in basic PADI > >beginner > >diving. If a competent tech student cannot be called upon to exercise > >their own > >knowledge, judgment, and skill of buoyancy control then there is a problem > >with > >the student. If a competent tech student is instructed to dive in a manner > >that > >they feel is dangerous (too deep/too heavy/too soon) and ignore all their > >experience and common sense, they have no one to blame except themselves. > > > >If they are not a competent student, do not have the knowledge, judgment, and > >skill that comes from experience then they do not belong in a tech class. If > >they find themselves in a class (say out of peer pressure, etc.), common > >sense > >dictates that the student realize before they are in the water that they > >are in > >over their head. > > > >Instructors have some responsibility, but ultimately its up to the student to > >decide to and conduct the dive. > > > >I've always conducted my diving at my pace, and at my discretion, using my > >head, > >and been responsible for myself. With an instructor or without. > > > >I think the agencies should include a test in the class at the beginning > >to see > >if the students are using their knowledge, skill and judgment. Have the > >instructor call the students to do something everyone knows would be too > >much-too soon or just plain dangerous. See if the students are still > >thinking. > >That should be lesson number one. Always think for yourself. > > > >Tom > > > >-- > >Guns and Armour of SCAPA FLOW > >1998 Underwater Photographic Survey of Historic Wrecks > >http://www.gunsofscapa.demon.co.uk > > > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Learn About Trimix At http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html -- Guns and Armour of SCAPA FLOW 1998 Underwater Photographic Survey of Historic Wrecks http://www.gunsofscapa.demon.co.uk -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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