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Premier (may I call you P?), I've been interested in this techy stuff for a couple of years now, and have had the luxury of being able to subscribe to techdiver (amongst others) forum. The first thing that techdiver did to me was make me want to know a hell of a lot more about diving, and my own limitations therein, before embarking on anything more adventurous. So this demonstrates to me that the more research you can do, like a lot of subjects, the more you realise there is more to know. But, (and this is a big but), how otherwise do you know what you need to know? You don't, and you rely on your instructor to say, "hey! you're not ready" or "hey! go away and read this first". I particularly like your chemistry teacher analogy. However, all scuba instructors play down the risks involved, sometimes simply because if you give a novice this info in the wrong way, you never see them again. There's also a lot of slamming of agency X versus agency Y on the list, some light-hearted, some not. But, let me tell you, when I first approached the local tech shop here in HK, the owner came along to our dive club to meet me, asked me some questions, and then gave me sufficient written information (he brought it along "just in case" !) to take away so that I would get a feel of the sort of thing he taught, and what I would need to know. I also hear on the net that Mr Jablonski is soon to be starting his own agency. Now does it really matter which agency he works for? The point of all this is that instruction, at the end of the day, is down to the professionalism of the individual. Sure, the quality assurance system of the agency involved should be of the highest level and weed out any loose cannons, but it is impossible to manage this once the agency reaches a certain size, since it simply isn't cost effective. If JJ were to train a hundred instructors, and these each trained 100 more, at the end of the day you wouldn't end up with 10001 JJs. You almost need a totally separate organisation (much like an "internal affairs" dept), to continually assess and investigate. Someone has to pay for this work, and the average techy's expense committee (the wife) would soon complain. I think the most important lesson to be learnt in diving is to continually question what's being taught. The good instructor explains again and again until the question is answered. The "other" type may fob you off with excuses for not knowing the answer, or may give you some obvious (or even some not so obvious) BS. Just my (weenie/old) 2p worth, JT -- John Taylor, Marketing and Trading Systems, IT Development Credit Suisse Financial Products (Hong Kong) Ltd, 13F, Tower 3, Exchange Square, Central, Hong Kong Office: +852 2101 6927, Fax: +852 2101 7698, Mobile: +852 9031 6395, email: john.taylor@cs*.co*.uk* > -----Original Message----- > From: premier@ma*.ac*.ne* > [SMTP:premier@ma*.ac*.ne*] > Sent: Friday, May 15, 1998 5:10 AM > To: cavers@ca*.co* > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: student responsibility > > Many people seem to feel that it is the student's responsibility to > know if > their instructor is taking them on an unsafe dive or training them in > an > unsafe manner. If either of these situations exist, this philsophy is > to > place the burden on teh student a) know about it and b) not make the > dive or > participate in the training. > > First, obviously, legally this is an indiefensible position and in a > court > of law an instructor will get eaten alive if his defense is the > student > should have known and told me I was being unsafe. But lots of things > in > courts of law are unfair so let's just leave this alone. I just > wanted to > point out to any instructors out there reading the ideas that a > student has > a duty or responsibility legally to "watch out" or tell their > instructors > when they are being unsafe that the concept is crap from a plaintiff > lawyer's perspective. > > Now in real life: > > Students of trimix classes have very few sources to make themselves > knowledgeable of all the dangers out there and what is safe and > unsafe. For > ex. IF ( a big if) a student was on techdiver or cavers the many > opposing > opinions posted would certainly confuse him or her. The vast majority > do > not even know the newsgroups exist prior to being involved. Then > let's look > at the printed material. Reading the tri-mix book or the deep diving > book > would give lots of outdated info and would present dives no longer > made > today. Deep air etc. Although this would confuse them too since lots > of > agencies stillr equire air below 130 feet. Reading Deep Tech or > Immersed > would surely confuse them more as every issue presents different > viewpoints > assuming they could even get the mags. > > If you are going to place this duty on a student you need to inform > them. > So give them a release that clearly and specifically notifies them > that you > EXPECT them to know what dives and training are safe and unsafe. But > even > if you gave them a copy of the S & P for whatever agency you are using > none > of them state whether the use of dive coms is or is not allowed during > tri-mix training. Give them lots of printed material to read BEFORE > they > take the class. for example give them the Baker's dozen, JJ's article > on > hogarthian and breathing the long hose etc. Now they are really > confused > because none of this stuff jives with the S & P stuff you gave them. > > This post could go on and on listing reasons it is absurd to require > your > students to know what is safe and unsafe diving and training before > they > even take the class. If you are taking a chemistry class in college > and the > professor says mix y and z and you blow up; are you at fault for not > knowing chemistry BEFORE you've even taken the class? > > The agencies have to have standards and instructors that teach safe > training > and diving and students should be able to rely on this. > > I hate PI suits as much as anyone and the lack of personal > responsibility in > our society, but to say a student such as Jane should ahve known adn > informed her instructor that he was praciting unsafe diving isn't > personal > repsonisibilty, it's an instructor trying to get off the hook. A > student > has a reasonable expectation that someone who presents themselves as > an > instructor, is accredited by an international training agency, etc. > will > teach as safe as possible diving and will inform the student of known > potential risks - which all the agencies use releases for. But NO > release > informs the student they have the burden to judge their instructor's > capabilites when they the student have no prior knowledge or > experience in > tri-mix diving. > > If you are an instructor out there expecting or relying on your > students to > monitor and regulate your behavior then you better tell them that AND > give > them the info to judge you by, and EVEN THEN I don't think a jury of > 12 > tri-mix isntructors will absolve you for reponsibility for things that > were > allegedly taking place when Jane died. And I can guarantee yo a jury > of 12 > non-diving "citizen-joes" will not. susan > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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