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Let me help :) you guys in this argument a little. The analogy is, a school, ( call it the TDI School of Intelligent Drunk Driving ---this of course in no way related to the Diving Agency of similar name....), which is prospering from convincing a willing public they can drive safely while drunk, provided they take these special courses, and pay this school enough money. Issue # 1-----Can a person learn to drive drunk, with an expectation of safety for themself and others???? Issue #2---- How intelligent is the population which responds to this school by enrolling----and can they be seen as a responsible cross section of the "Driving World" , given their belief that it is proper for them to Drink and Drive, with an expectation of safety.. Issue # 3----While the idea of a school for "Intelligent" Drunk Driving may be bad, the greater concept is "Drunk Driving in general"......, and a majority of enlightened drivers happens to be in "absolute agreement" that Drunk Driving is a dangerous practice, and that people have died as a direct result of it, and that Drunken Driving will most certainly kill more. . Issue #4-----Given Drunk Driving is considered to be a dangerous practice by the enlightened, a school that attempts to prosper through the justification of Drunk Driving ( through their certification ) , might better be considered a danger to the public, and to those naive enough to believe the claims as to the possibility of "Intelligent Drunk Driving". Issue # 5 ---Whether or not a direct correlation between graduates of this "School" for "Intelligent Drunk Driving" , and deaths attributed to drunk driving can be made at this time, one of the reasons a member of society may pride themselves as intelligent, is the occasional "leap" of understanding --- such as being able to connect these two issues as highly related, without the need for direct correlation....i.e., "Do you really need to kill people to make a point ???" So what the hell are you guys really arguing about :) Regards, Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: roger steele <rogersteele@ho*.co*> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Deeptech > >You have missed my point entirely. From your response I gather that you >are confusing two different issues. One issue is the safety of deep air >diving. The other is simply this: Can you prove that TDI is practicing >unsafe diving instruction in its classes. I have asked you to provide >me with factual information that would show us all that TDI is directly >responsible for any deaths related to scuba diving, not just deep air. >You have failed to provide this information. I can only assume from >this that you do not have such information. From this one can only >conclude that your comments are based on heresay and opinion, and should >be ignored until relevant information is provided. It seems strange to >me that I cannot find in any of your responses a mention of DAN, an >organization that does keep track of statistics concerning dive related >accidents. In order to prove your contention that TDI is responsible >for deep air deaths that have occured since 1994, I suggest that you >contact DAN, as a starting point, in gathering statistical information >by which you can correlate scuba diving deaths with TDI certification. >>From there, you can probably find other organizations that keep up with >relevant statistics concerning our discussion. I would be more than >willing to help you in this quest. >>From your reference to me as "hotmail", I am assuming that you are still >having difficulty with believing that I am a real person. I base this >claim on the fact that my e-mail address is irrelevant to the issue at >hand, and therefore must be related to some of your previous postings >that have alluded to me being Brett Gilliam, which is ridiculous. As I >have stated in prior postings, I can be reached at the following >numbers: 205-942-2522 ex109 or 1-800-610-2522 ex109. In fact, I will >be diving in North Florida caves this weekend. (Jan24-25) You could >even join us. (no deep air diving, just cave diving) I'm assuming that >you cave dive, which might not be the case. At any rate, this does >present you the opportunity of presenting me with the results of your >search. (If you have any by then) > >Roger >>From cobber@ma*.ci*.co* Thu Jan 22 06:34:14 1998 >>Received: from 206.246.204.136 by cisatlantic.com >> with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.0.2); 22 JAN 98 >09:33:48 UT >>Subject: Re: Deeptech >>Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:33:52 -0500 >>x-sender: cobber@ma*.ci*.co* >>x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 >>From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> >>To: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>, >> "Tech Diver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> >>OK, hotmail, I give up. You are right, there is nothing wrong with >>teaching deepair. What a fool I was to think this. There is nothing >wrong >>with this, nobody's died from deepair. All these deaths were from bad >>luck. >> >>TDI is completely absolved of anything that has to do with divers dying >>from deepair, mailorder cards, 1 day rebreather courses, instructor wah >>wah dives. Rob Palmer had a heart attack. >> >>Narcosis can be overcome by practice. Air is great down to 240'. Trimix >>is expensive waste of money, only good for 500' dives. You're right. >I'm >>wrong. I think I'll go out and sign up for a TDI deepair course today. >I >>understand the buzz is great. >> >> Jim >> >>On 1/22/98 9:01 AM roger steele wrote: >> >>>Forgive me for not understanding your post. Your lucid argumentation >is >>>sometimes overwhelming. However, my question remains unanswered by >you. >>>TDI was founded in 1994. The dead list is irrelevant to TDI's >>>responsibility towards those deaths. 95% of the ones you have >mentioned >>>happened well before 1994. (Several of the names that are last on the >>>list do not have dates listed. Also, one of the names on the list, >>>Sheck Exley, did not die on deep air, he died using mixed gas, as a am >>>sure most of the people on this e-mail list are well aware. >Therefore, >>>you should strike his name off the list. This raises another issue >>>concerning the reliability of your list. Please provide me with the >>>details of these deaths ie. . . What were the circumstances of each >>>accident, were all of them in fact diving air?) You would be hard >>>pressed to convince anyone that TDI's unsafe dive instruction is >>>responsible for deaths happening in the 1960's. If you think this is >>>indeed the case, please present your logical arguments so that I also >>>can be convinced. Remember, my question is show me the statistical >>>correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI certification. In >your >>>comments I see nothing that is relevant to this question. Let me be as >>>clear as possible, in the list that you have provided me, how many are >>>TDI certified? Of the ones that are certified, (if there are any) how >>>many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's unsafe diving >>>instuction? Please respond with factual statistics. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html >> >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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