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Todd, The way you quoted it here is very similar to what I use. Basicly you carefully mention that such diving practices and their dangers exist, tell them just enough to not overload them and explain how they can further their training in such areas at a later time. I think were all on the same page here. Jeremy At 11:29 AM 12/10/97 -0500, Todd Leonard wrote: >Jeremy, you're right that it's important to not overwhelm students >with more information than they need in the first class -- a good >instructor is by necessity a good communicator, and will always be >reading his audience to see how to present it to them in the way >they will best understand it. > >However, I do not believe that any of the things I listed need >to go over students' heads, if presented properly. For example, >all I mean when I say O2 toxicity should be introduced is: > > Students, we've already talked a little about partial > pressures and the ideal gas laws. We won't cover the > details in this class, but I want to make you aware > of the fact that in some more advanced forms of diving > it's useful for divers to change the fractions of > different gases in their breathing mix to meet certain > objectives. If you've ever heard the terms "nitrox" > or "trimix", that's what we're talking about. > > The one issue that I want to introduce to you is about > "oxygen toxicity", which is a condition that occurs when > divers breathe high partial pressures of oxygen. "High" > is high enough that this is not an issue when breathing > air within the recreational limits we've already defined, > which is why we don't talk about this a lot more than > we're doing now. > > You need to know, though, that divers going deeper than > recreational limits or breathing anything other than air > need to think about oxygen toxicity and plan their profiles > and mixtures very carefully. This planning is in addition > to the same sort of planning we do for decompression, but > it has a greater sense of urgency because the effects of > toxicity can be even more serious than that of decompression > sickness. So, when you start hearing people talk about > these types of diving, remember that doing it safely > requires additional training and planning, and even greater > care in the execution of the plan. > >Is that so complicated? It builds on simple concepts that the >class will have already discussed, and can be presented within >the attention span of nearly everybody. Keep followup info on >hand for those who want to learn more -- I think "Diving >Physiology in Plan English" is a great introduction. > >Jim already followed up that Hogarthian works great for recreational >diving, and I agree completely and just defer to his comments. > >- Todd > > >> From dcrco@jp*.ne* Wed Dec 10 05:55:05 1997 >> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:55:11 -0800 (PST) >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, "Todd Leonard" <toddl@in*.co*> >> From: Jeremy Downs <dcrco@jp*.ne*> >> Subject: Re: Deep PADI Bullshit >> Cc: "Tech Diver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> >> Jim, >> I agree with you on most everything but you should remember that PADI is in >> the recreational diving business and on the opposite polar end of the dive >> spectrum from what were talking about. We can't expect the normal open water >> diver to be held to the same techniques necessary for tech diving even if it >> may be better for us. I don't agree with all their standards but I do >> believe the agency does keep safety and genuine education as their primary >> cause. Whenever I come across a student with the proper mindset and aptitude >> I do introduce them to better concepts and configuration. You can't train a >> pilot to fly a F-18 first rather he has to start out with a Cessna or other >> simple configuration and move up but most pilots are content with simple >> flying, the same concept applies with diving. >> >> PADI is in the business to make money but most instructors are in it for >> more noble reasons. Really, you can't make a real living in it unless you >> own a shop or are a very popular course director. If you don't believe so >> ask one to show you his books sometime. Obviously I'm not talking about the >> 7-11 "professionals here, they are a sad exception. >> >> >> >> At 09:02 AM 12/9/97 -0500, Jim Cobb wrote: >> >Todd, I agree with on this. But PADI is a business trying to make money. >> >Every one of these changes would result in a loss of potential card >> >laminations because there are agencies willing to teach the status quo. >> > >> >"Gosh" said Janie "if I go with the PADI course, I'll have to buy a $120 >> >long hose for my Posiden, I guess I'll go with the NAUI course where I >> >don't have to buy one". "But EVERYBODY uses a snorkle! And you're saying >> >that I don't need one? I think I'll take the NAUI course where one is >> >required". "All that Owhatever toxic stuff gives me a headache, think >> >I'll take the NAUI course where they don't mention it"."Wow, you mean >> >tables are pretty much a Black Art?, No thanks! I'll just go with NAUI >> >who says that the tables are fine". "Gosh, theres NO WAY I diving without >> >someone to save me when I get in trouble". >> > >> >Believe me this will happen and PADI knows it. What would have to happen >> >is all the XYZ agencies would have to get together and agree on a >> >standard. A cold day in hell when that happens. I think that the "Tech" >> >agencies will have to take up the challenge of retraining the PADI and >> >NAUI, etc. people. It's a tough row to hoe, but I know that Tom Mount can >> >do it. >> > >> > Jim >> > >> >On 12/8/97 5:35 PM Todd Leonard wrote: >> > >> >>I agree completely. Like I said, there are some points where I >> >>think PADI could do better, but they are so far removed from deep >> >>air it's not funny. Examples: >> >> >> >> - In general, I believe they too strongly project the notion >> >> that all diving beyond the limits to which they have chosen >> >> to teach is irresponsible. (However, I *do* believe PADI's >> >> limits are appropriate for most divers! Not that most folks >> >> have an innate limitation like some would have us believe >> >> with deep air "tolerance" -- the limitations I'm referring >> >> to have more to do with the commitments we're each willing >> >> to make to training, gear config, and other issues that >> >> contribute to individual fitness for advanced diving.) >> >> >> >> - Breathing the long hose should minimally be discussed -- I >> >> think it's way better than the "golden triangle" approach >> >> that's taught. It's true that some folks aren't comfortable >> >> having a reg out of their mouths momentarily, but masking >> >> that problem with an inferior donation technique doesn't >> >> make it go away. >> >> >> >> - The snorkle mandate is nuts for most if not all diving, >> >> and even if for some reason you must take a snorkle for >> >> some contingency stowing it on the side of your head >> >> until you need it is still a poor choice. >> >> >> >> - I would like to see greater discussion of O2 toxicity >> >> right from the start of the curriculum, and probably >> >> some other physiology issues like PFOs. It should be >> >> absolutely clear to even the most basic student why >> >> PADI's limits are what they are -- not just "cross >> >> this line and you're not 'safe' anymore". >> >> >> >> - It needs to be made clear that when the instructor >> >> says something like "there's no guarantee you won't >> >> get bent if you stay within the limits", that it's >> >> not just the usual butt-covering we've all come to >> >> expect but that there really *is* a lot about this >> >> stuff that we don't predict accurately. >> >> >> >> - I'd like to see greater discussion of redundancy, and >> >> of how this is tied in to buddy-team philosophy for the >> >> type of diving they're teaching. >> >> >> >>Nevertheless, within the limits they've defined, I don't see >> >>any of these issues with PADI killing people with the extreme >> >>frequency of deep air. Anybody who can't see how PADI and TDI >> >>are different with respect to safety is beyond me. >> >> >> >>- Todd >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > >> > >> > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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