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In a message dated 97-10-09 00:05:08 EDT, you write: << Michael the first training accident in this quarry was by two students that had no intention of diving with the class. They wanted to make a two hundred foot dive and the dive discussed with me, when the group was entering the water was 150 ft. The two divers made a substantial effort to get away from the class to get to 200 ft. Greg, Has the lawsuit against you and IANTD been settled? Are you trying to tell us about YOUR training death??? If yes, did you > look at their background and their demonstrated attitude before accepting > them at all underwater? Mr. Mike tell me how your supposed to do this from their log book and certification cards. Background check only reveled that they had taken the required classes and the had been making dives in the range of the class. Gee Greg, I do believe you have answered the question after all even though you are trying to avoid it. If your background check revealed the diver had taken the required classes and I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean the required prerequisite classes. Then shouldn't the fact that he had been making dives in the range of the class he wanted to take be a warning sign to you. This guy had been turned down for instruction for training by at least one instructor before he came to you based on a oral interview alone. No background check was necessary. This guy wanted one thing....to go deep and he never made any bones about it. YOU accepted him as a student anyway. Your so eager to blame the instructor that your don't put any responsibility on the student. Maybe you blame yourself Greg, In none of these posts was your name EVER MENTIONED yet here you are defending yourself. This thread started off about TDI and their instructors not IANTD. Are you suffering for a GUILTY CONSCIENCE??? The student traveled 496 ft in 14 minutes. The class traveled 250 ft in 12 minutes. If your going to refer to this as a training accident shouldn't the discussion be limited to students that were making an effort to stay with the class? And your response to the fact that there was obviously a missing diver? Did you even notice? How many students did you have anyway that one was able to get away from you like this. YOU are supposed to be watching these guys. YOU are responsible after all YOU are the one that is supposed to be training the student. This includes observing and evaluating the students performance underwater. How the hell did you allow a student to get over 200 ft. away from you??? Most students don't put "I make dives for an ego trip", in their log books. This says it all!!!! Since you have it in quotes I take it this is what was written in the divers log. Earlier in the post you respond to the question about checking the divers background and demonstrated ability before accepting them into the class by asking how are you supposed to do that "from their logbook and certification cards." There was sure a red flag waving here, Greg. > Do you dive with your students? How come your students can start a dive > without you with them? If this attitude was demonstrated in a prior dive, > how come they were still part of that class? The students started the dive with the class and used the low visibility of the haze in the U/W trees to cover their escape as soon as I turned away to look at the other students. What are you an Olympic backstroke champion. Give me a break. You already claim the diver had been doing dives in this range. Are we really to believe that he took a class from you just to fuck you over by disapearring as soon as he could and doing his own thing which was to get killed and make YOU the victim and too look bad. COME ON!!! The information about the diver's history surfaced after he had died. Which followed with several other stories about his past. Greg, again.....this guy wanted to dive deep just for the thrill of saying that he had been there. I would also like to hear your method of evaluating a divers level of narcosis. Since narcosis levels are higher on fast descents, high work levels, and a function of the divers condition. The tests are run with the diver at rest. Most MALE divers will not admit to their level of narcosis because of their ego. What I'm not hearing in these discussions are solutions to the problems, just a lot of name calling. As instructors we require student to have DAN insurance to cover treatment in case of a diving accident. Should we require the student to have a 1 million dollar life insurance policy to take care of their family in event of their death or paralyzed state if they make a mistake that gets them injured. Where is the students concern for his own family if he will spend $ 5,000.00 in equipment and classes to get to this level but won't spend $ 500.00 for a life insurance police to take care of his family? Maybe all of this required insurance by the student will keep the lawyers from going after your ass next time. From just what you have posted he I can see I would NEVER EVER, NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, EVER take any class from you. In one of your other posts you state that the dive partner of the dead diver has told at least three different versions of the story involving this accident. Well, I know this guy and consider him to be a friend. he is honest and straight forward about what happened. And I would dive with him anytime, anywhere. Please remember, YOUR paranoia brought this to the fore front....not him. Now, do you want to talk about your other student who blew out his eardrums earlier this year while taking a class from you thru Capt. Dale's dive shop????? I am sure you bear no responsibility in this accident either but I would like to hear your side of the story anyway. Bob - --------- > From: Michel Therrien <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*> > To: Greg Zambeck <gzambeck@us*.ne*>; gmirvine@sa*.ne*; cavers@ge*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > Cc: freeattic@co*.ci*.uf*.ed* > Subject: Zambeck's training accident (was It's All About To Be Over ForTDI) > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 3:06 PM > > Greg, > > I think I'm missing something here. > > Was this a training dive? Were these people YOUR students? > > > Another thing... how big is the class? (more than 3 students?) > > Well, so many questions... but all of this seems so strange to me. If > these people were your students and this was a class, to me, this is a > training accident. > > Safe technical diving depends a lot on divers' attitude. Too many people > think that owning the equipment and knowing some techniques are enough. As > well, too few instructors teach divers how to think. They should also > recognize divers that do not have the ability to think at all and remove > them from the circuit (or at least, not recognize them). > > Michel > > > At 03:29 PM 10/8/97 -0400, Greg Zambeck wrote: > >Let's get the story straight George. > > > >The first training accident in this lake was by a 58 year old Master > >instructor and a 32 year old full cave diver. > > > >The two student's were 250 ft away from the class, that on three (3) > >consecutive dives only traveled 220 to 250 ft. from the shore. > > > >When the 58 year old survivor was asked who had planned the dive he > >remarked > > > >"that the other diver came to him Sunday morning, the two of them talked > >about it and they just decided to go for it". > > > >Being the instructor I was not informed of the dive plan nor did I approve > >of it. > > > >The student who died had a history of running off on his dive partners, > >which the family knows about. > > > >He was also told that he could not dive below 180 ft. in this class, the > >night before he died. > > > >He was found in 213 ft of water and had traveled 496 ft. to get there. > > > >The diver that died left his dive partner at 194 ft because couldn't keep > >up. > >The dive partner was the one that planned the dive and lead it most of the > >way. > >He now has three stories that he has told as to what happned. > > > >I would question how you can call this a training accident when the > >"STUDENTS" can exceed the class by a factor of 2? > > > > > >---------- > >> From: George M. Irvine III <gmirvine@sa*.ne*> > >> To: cavers@ge*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > >> Cc: freeattic@co*.ci*.uf*.ed* > >> Subject: It's All About To Be Over For TDI > >> Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 1:21 PM > >> > >> I just spoke to the Jackson County Sheriff and went over the report of > >> the DEEP AIR TRAINING DEATH by a TDI instructor at Lake Wazee , > >> Wisconsin. Here are the facts: > >> > >> This was a training dive. The Sheriff has the TDI training forms filled > >> out. There was one instructor for three students. NO MIXED gas was used > >> - they were diving AIR. The divers' computers showed 191 feet of depth. > >> The victim had a problem at depth, and the instructor inflated his bc > >> and shot him to the surface BY HIMSELF - how stupid are these guys? They > >> then DECOMCPRESSED instead of helping the victim - what is going on out > >> there? How stupid is TDI? How unqualified and stupid can an instructor > >> possibly be ? How negligent can these guys possibly get? > >> > >> The victim then sank back down unconscious and drowned, while these > >> real tough guy heroes of deepair diving decompressed their weenie little > >> incompetent asses. > >> > >> Where is the safety plan here? > >> > >> ANOTHER onlooker had to put on a tank and go after the victim, and then > >> these guys went after the body again, and again failed to surface it so > >> they could deco from a nothing dive that requires no deco - they are > >> incompetent idiots. > >> > >> Dead is worse than bent, but obviously not to these guys. They clearly > >> have ZERO understanding of decompression, and how an instructor can be > >> taking three students on a deep air dive to 191 while himself on air and > >> expect anything different that what happened is beyond my understanding. > >> > >> You know what the Sheriff asked me? He wanted to know what he should do > >> about the County wanting to shut the lake to diving. Look what wonderful > >> things Brett Gilliam is doing for our sport. I am so sick of listening > >> to strokes like Odem, Gilliam and Skaggs run their ignorant mouths about > >> deep air while reaking havoc on our sport. These guys need to go, and > >> the sooner you all quit covering up for them, the sooner we can get them > >> out of our sport. > >> > >> The sooner we put together one of these victims with the right law firm > >> (which we have) and the right expert witnesses ( which we have) , the > >> sooner it will be over. We need everyone's help in ridding this sport of > >> this problem. > > > > >> -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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