On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:16:47 -0500 (CDT), EE Atikkan  wrote:

>You wrote: 
>>
>>OK, Esat, enogh being nice - you do now know what the f you are 
>talking
>>about, and until you do your first cave dive, your opinion about the
>>effects of narcosis in a cave is garbage, just like your information 
>on
>>that stroke Suarez: the dumb f was diving air in independents on his
>>back with a side bottle of trimix,the kind fof stupid shit that only 
>the
>>worst stroke would do, and  he was forced to go to air at 300. I 
>talked
>>to his dive buddy. You can continue to be a stroke, do things 
>completely
>>wrong, and run you big mouth , but you do not have the fist clue about
>>diving - not the first dingle tiny little clue, and this makes you a
>>dangerous, irresponsible  stroke when you are suggesting that a old 
>fat
>>guy like you can "hangdle" deep air, so everyone else should do it -
>>that is bullshit, pal, and you are an iresponsible asshole for
>>suggesting it. Why is it that guys like me who are in the condition of 
>a
>>competitive athelete and do dives beyond any capability you ever had,
>>don't do the stupid, asinine things you do? Why is it that somebody of
>>my ability does it right, and a dillatante like you has to continue to
>>ingore reality and pretend there is some ability to operate inpaired?
>>
>>   The proof is ovbious and has been around for ever. Next time you 
>say
>>something this stupid, strip the PhD of of your signatue, or people 
>will
>>think you got it in the mail, along with a TDI deep air card. Yo 
>really
>>need to take a look at what yo are doing, what yo are saying, and what
>>influence yo uare having - this is seroius, people are dying, and you
>>are a conttiubting factor. I can't handle deep air, so what makes you
>>think a fat old slob like you can?
>>
>>
>
>Not very nice George :->
>
>I don't C any initials after my name.
>I avoid argumentun ad homineum
>I don't teach deep air or advocate it
>I just like that facts be set out & discussed from all possible aspects
>
>Now if we are going to get scurrilous & not face the facts, but sling 
>feces w/o a basis, then there really is no reason to continue the 
>discussion.
>
>It is disappointing, nay disgusting that anytime there is a 
>counterpoint, discussion ceases and it becomes name calling, a tyrade.
>
>The fact remains - advocating heliox at the 140-160 range may not have 
>the broadest application in scuba diving.  It is possible that given 
>the special circumstances that cave divers deal with tere may be 
>grounds to prefer it and require that all participants be trained such. 
>
>However one has to truly demonstrate the need for it in any other 
>environment.  
>
>Is it possible that your tenets may not extrapolate to other 
>environments w/o modification?
>
>I think you should think about that.
>Incidentally, don't worry about being nice - we old guys can handle it
>
>C U @ sushi.
>
>Esat Atikkan


Esat, take a look at the last statements you made above, and think for
a minute.  Somebody should not have to die in order to create the
statistics to support the fact that deep air is a bad idea.  This is
like arguing that drinking to excess is perfectly okay, and that it is
only the people who get in their cars and kill people that need use
some restraint in drinking.  The facts remain that:

1)  Most people dive air because it is cheap.

2)  Most people who use air in the 30m + range do so because their
training programs taught them that it was okay to do so, and were only
taught to use alternate gases when the ppo2 on air became too high.

3)  Air is a narcotic mixture at any depth other than sea level.

4)  There is conclusive evidence to support the fact that judgement is
impaired on air at depth, as well as motor control and logical process.

5)  The reason that the anti deep air movement seems to be emanating
solely from the cave diving community is that these people have more
logistical concerns in planning these dives, and have kept better
records as a result, which they can use to compare profiles, incidents
and diver behaviours to, and the results have been unarguable.

6)  Diving is an inherently hazardous activity, and by utilizing a
narcotic gas mixture you are essentially playing with dice as to
whether or not there will be a problem, analogous the the person who
has a few pints at the local watering hole, "feels fine", and elects to
drive home.  Sure, most fatal accidents due to impaired drivers are
from those in gross violation of the legal blood alcohol limit, but how
many people have drifted subtly around in their lane, and perhaps
parked a few inches too far from the curb, without becoming a
statistic.  I don't drink and drive, and I don't dive deep on air.

7)  This stigma may definitely be extrapolated to other environments. 
I do not dive in caves, but I dive in cold water, open water, in
wrecks, under ice, heavy currents, zero vis, high potential entrapment
areas, contaminated water, time critical search and rescue ops, body
recoveries, etc.  Under NO circumstances would I consider doing any of
these dives on a narcotic mixture, because my life is worth more to me
than the cost of a little common sense.

8)  What possible reason can you put forth to support the position that
the use of deep air, while obviously inappropriate to extreme exposure,
working dives, or thought critical applications, is perfectly
acceptable for open water rec / tech divers?  In my opinion, the life
of an open water newbie is just as important as the life of a WKPP gas
team member.

8 1/2)  The urge to use air instead of an appropriate trimix or heliox
because of the cost, when you consider the money that technical divers
invest in their equipment, as well as logistic, transportation and
maintenance costs, is a little like Bill Gates clipping coupons.

Just a thought,
-Sean







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