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Esat, As I said earlier, in another public post to this list, only one or two in my original list were due to OxTox (Dana Turner, etc). As for the holes in the data, when it was given to me there were holes (1982-1987, 1991-present). Sorry that you're skeptical, but the previous people weren't updating the database. The rest on that list, narcosis played a role in as a contributing factor. Let me try and explain it to you in less eloquent terms then George did. These people died on cave dives. Narcosis leads you to make judgement errors. In a cave, if you're suffering narcosis, the only solution is to exit. You can not just ascend. Even in a ship wreck you probably won't be as far back in as you can get in a cave (I've never heard of a 2200' long ship wreck, which is a pretty simple cave penetration). These minor "errors in judgement" are what contributes to death. When you have experienced divers going the wrong way in a cave for 10 solid minutes before realizing it, in a cave they're familiar with (more then 50 dives in), where the depth is only 150', then it really sets in that narcosis can be a problem. Think about it, you're 1500' in a cave, 150' deep, and in a total siltout. Now find the line. You're 700' in a cave that's 145' deep and your primary light dies and your buddy is nowhere to be found, and your backup lights don't work, now get out. This particular scenario really *DID* happen and it resulted in a fatality. The diver who died was a highly experienced cave diver with a number of dives under his belt. He's now quite dead. Most new (less then 100 cave dives) cave divers already feel a certain amount of stress being in the cave zone anyway, now throw a little bit of narcosis in there and have some minor problem and watch what happens. I have personally witnessed some stupid stuff in the 140-150 range (someone getting a stage regulator stuck in his scooter blades without knowing it and knocking them off, people not able to clip on/off stage bottles, etc). These people are all good divers in the 100' range (they're non-WKPP divers but still good), but get them to 150' and they're all thumbs. I will be the first to admit that diving to 150-180' on a nice warm wall with 200' visibility is easy, but cave diving adds a whole new dimension which most people seem to forget. Fact: More trained cave divers have died deeper then 130' then at any other depth range. Any cavern certified student can tell you that. There's a reason for this statistic. It's called narcosis. Ken ps - I will not be dragged into this anymore because I don't want to have to delete 25 more bounce messages for every post I make to cavers. > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:47:54 -0500 (CDT) > From: atikkan@ix*.ne*.co* (EE Atikkan ) > Subject: Deep Air - still need to look @ facts > Cc: cavers@ge*.co* > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > It is disturbing to see that the antagonism for 'deep air' has led to > listing accidents without a clear cut understanding of the contributory > factors. > > Furthermore, this his has been done without a clear definition of > 'Deep', or the depth mediated 'causal effect' that contributed to the > demise. Which negative effect of air at depth are we concrened about? > > Ox tox - regarded as a primary contributor. > Narcosis - an impairing factor that becomes an issue when 'things go > wrong'. That brings about the question would the victim have survived > if they were not on air, thus less narked. > Other physiological factors - remain relatively undefined. > > In an analysis, accident or whatever, parameters must be defined & > causal as well as contibutory factors must be identified. > > I questioned the validity of including dives in the 140-160 range in > the 'deep air deaths' list. > > I still do & will continue to do so. > > Was it narcosis? > Was it ox tox? > Were there other medical, physical, mental, psychological factors > involved? > > It is well etablished that using depth as the osole criterion is > inadequate. Many a shallow dive can be significantly more complex than > deeper ones. I am sure the cave diving community is well aware of > that. Most wreck diver are, as are ice divers. > > Until supplemental details of accidents ascribed to deep air are > provided, the arguments against deep air, in particular in the 140-160 > range, will ring hollow. > > Many dives take place in the 140-160, even 170 range. The NAtl wreck > diving community dives it routinely. In Europe 165 has been the limit > for recreational diving. All on air. Do accidents occur? Yes. Was > air @ that the contributory factor? Possibly. Could other factors > have been causal? Most definitely. > > Also having 1st hand info with one of those accidents ascribed to deep > air I can tell U that: > > Ed Suarez was not on air - it is thought that he toxed because he > switched to the wrong mix or that his mix was unsuiatable. > > > Esat Atikkan > > > > > > > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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