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Tom, A few questions. At 12:12 PM 9/8/97 -0400, Tom Mount wrote: >IANTD dropped the technical deep air course in 1995, I will check the >webpage to make sure it is no longer listed. If it is there it is by >accident. Again that course was dropped in 1995. It is still in your website (BTW the website has alot newer stuff than '95) and apparently some of your instructors and even directors are not aware of such changes and still certify these courses. What happens when the student forms are sent back to headquarters for c-cards, you would think these guys would find out real fast the course was eliminated if you were not issuing them. >Yes for a trimix qualification to dive deeper than 200 feet/60m we do >require deep air to 160 and will continue to do so. What is the reasoning on having a deep air requirement beyond 130'? Beyond 130' the threat of narcosis (and now there is even evidence of possible underlying physiological damage) is real and unpredictable, this can create dangerous situations that could be easily avoided with the addition of helium to the mix also it can inhibit appropriate responses in an emergency situation. Why require this course (to get to trimix) if this type of diving should not be done anyway? The reason for my "Bullshit Alert" was based on a discussion between myself, one of your key members, and others on the Rebreather List. Your friend adamently proclaimed in several posts that your organization does not teach deep air use beyond 130', his response was based on posts by myself and others stating frustration with your organization (and others also) requiring deep air training (which alot of us believe is wrong) to get to trimix. As our discussions progressed it became apparent he was misleading us and accusing me of doing so. A simple few minutes of research exposed this therefore I felt it was necessary to reveal this to the rest of the list. Are you a member of the rebreather list or did your friend forward the last messages to you? If you were a member than you probably understand what our entire discussion was about. (if not, I copied some of the key messages at the end of this post) To summarize it, we were discussing frustration with the sheer numbers of required courses to get to the ones needed by most divers. As this included dangerous and unnecessary courses (deep air series), high priced materials & fees, etc. it seems as if the overall program is more profit based than safety based. We did mention that many aspects of the courses were good but convoluting them with the above mentioned problems and soaking students & instructors for every penny possible outwieghed the good. The other problems we were discussing were over seemingly different standards for key members and rank and file instructors. (mainly over rebreather experience requirements for instructors - rank and file can't teach until they have extensive time on a system but key members can almost do it right out of the box UT240,Mk5, etc) Double standards have no place in a true "association". >George, I think it is good for you to start your own training agency. >Tom mount > >G. Irvine wrote: >> >> Jeremy and Jim, it is in fact a VIOLATION of IANTD standards to teach >> trimix or whatever they call the deep trimix without first teaching >> "deep air" to 160. >> >> We at WKPP have solved this problem, and the problem of the other >> agency nonsense by starting our own training agency , run by Jarrod >> Jablonski. In this agency, which already is up and running, one can not >> only "do it right" one can learn form guys who do it for real, like me >> and the rest of the WKPP divers. We will all be assisting this effort in >> our own areas of expertise, and participating in the diving with >> students, to offer something that really counts - the combined >> experience of the guys who really do it. >> >> I would especially like to thank Bret Gilliam for calling up my guys >> and convincing them to do what I have been trying to get them to do all >> along, and Tom Mount for his last "standaards" post - those two items >> put it in motion. >> At 07:31 AM 9/7/97 +1000, diver@ch*.ne*.au* wrote: >>>hahahahahhehehehehe >>>I really love this one Jeremy.....these guys will have a time trying to >>>weasel their way out of this.....you nailed them big time.....hehehehehe >>>......I love it...well done >>> >>> >>>At 02:40 6/09/97 -0700, Jeremy Downs wrote: >>>>Jim, >>>>I'm really not typically the aggressive type on this list but I have to take >>>>time to call for a ...... >>>> >>>>!!!!!!!!!******** B U L L S H I T A L E R T *********!!!!!!!!! >>>> >>>> (read this post all the way through) >>>> >>>>At 01:00 PM 9/5/97 -0400, Ocean Diving Inc. wrote: >>>>>Jer, >>>>>Did you know that the Max. depth limit for IANTD >>>>>Deep Air Training is 130'. Sounds like somebody is feeding you a lot of >>>>bull. I will gladly send you a copy of the Deep Air Course S&P's for your >>>>eval if you would like. Don't be mislead. Lead. >>>>>Semper Deep >>>>>Capt. Jim >>>>>www.oceandiving.com >>>>> >>>>Whos feeding who the bull here? I didn't even have to go over to my office >>>>and find my copy of IANTD's standards, all I had to do was go to *your* >>>>website. I found the below quoted items on a direct link from your site. As >>>>a key member of IANTD and an IT shouldn't you already know the standards? As >>>>you can probably tell, I am definitly not trying to "mislead", you guys seem >>>>to already have that covered. >>>> >>>>NOTE: >>>>I copied these directly from IANTD's official website, they are word for >>>>word perfect. Note the depths quoted below and reference them to your >>>>message above. This really blows me away that you just tried to deny that >>>>these courses existed. >>>> >>>>-------------------------------------------------------- >>>>Advanced Deep Air Diver >>>> >>>>This program has been designed to provide safe training to those divers who >>>>carry out diving to depths greater than the commonly practiced depth of 130 >>>>fsw/39 msw. The IANTD Advanced Deep Air Diver program provides training to >>>>160 fsw/49 msw. It is a tigh tly supervised program concentrating on safety >>>>and control of oxygen and narcosis risk. This program also provides training >>>>in many advanced forms of diving technique. >>>> >>>> >>>>Technical Deep Air Diver >>>> >>>>This program has been designed to provide safe training of those few divers >>>>who are committed to diving to greater depths. The IANTD Technical Deep Air >>>>Diver program affords training to 190 fsw/58 msw. It is a tightly supervised >>>>program concentrating on s afety and control of oxygen and narcosis risk. >>>> >>>>-------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>And to think I was giving you the benefit of the doubt when you knew I was >>>>right on the money all along. >>>> >>>>So why then does your orgnization promote several classes on such a known >>>>dangerous practice and actually require it to get to trimix. We both know >>>>the answer don't we? After 130' you should be teaching trimix as part of the >>>>basic deep diving program if you wanted to be truly safe, not just selling a >>>>bunch of classes. Its time for real changes, DO WHATS RIGHT AND SAFE, PLEASE. ************** George Irvine wrote: Jeremy, for "advanced" impairment "training", Hal Watts ( Mr. Scuba ) offers level 4 and level 5 - air to 300 - a true genius. The sooner these laughinstocks are hooted out of diving, the happier I wil be. ************** Jim, I'm not saying your programs suck, rather I do like your standards for the most part but the standards should be consistant throughout all levels of your organization for all people & you have gone overkill on the number of programs to get from point A to B. On deep air though thats plain irresponsible. Maybe I'll start a Drunk Driver Training Program, Level One - 1 sixpac, Level Two - 2 sixpacs, Level Three - Shitfaced. How many people need to get bent or die from stupid mistakes for this to become clear? Jeremy **************** Jim, I do have a copy of their standards, I'll go back and review them. The deep air programs are being taught out here for 180'. In fact your mention of IANTD promoting 130' as the max depth of air is the first I have ever heard of that. Are you sure they are saying that air should never be used past 130'? Even if I'm mistaken (which I don't believe I am), what about the rest of my post? They really do seem to be soaking both the students and instructors with high priced fees, materials & endless classes before they can access the ones they really need. I never said all their programs were bad, just there is too many intermediate steps with additional fees which are only set up to benifit IANTD's owners. That coupled with the double standards I mentioned earlier point to some really bad ethical & business decisions. Jeremy P.S. You never told me the other side of the story on what happened out on your boat with the Mk5's. **************** At 01:00 PM 9/5/97 -0400, Ocean Diving Inc. wrote: >Jer, >Did you know that the Max. depth limit for IANTD >Deep Air Training is 130'. Sounds like somebody is feeding you a lot of bull. I will gladly send you a copy of the Deep Air Course S&P's for your eval if you would like. Don't be mislead. Lead. >Semper Deep >Capt. Jim >www.oceandiving.com ***************** >The shops out here are teaching Nitrox, Tech Nitrox, Deep Air, Trimix. Even so we all know it really should just be three solid courses Nitrox, Tech Nitrox (technical & deco procedures) & Trimix. Both agencies are endangering the public with the deep air stuff for the profit of at least one extra course. Jeremy ***************** MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE TO RICH PYLE I believe your system works but what I'm worried about (and apparently so are a few others) is the inconsistancies in IANTD with reguards to their standards. They have stringent standards if someone wanted to join them and teach these courses, but the leaders of the association do not seem to hold themselves to the same standards at all. They definitly hold back the best programs for themselves exclusivly, this is not the way an "association" should behave. They also compete directly aginst their lessor members and try to push incredible programs (how many other agencies require an open water student to take three full courses before certification equal to the other agencies, not to mention requiring students to take a useless and hazardous course (deep air) before completing trimix, take a look at how many programs they try to soak you for to just get to trimix. Their programs are totally profit oriented to soak not only the students but also their instructors too. This brings me back to the rebreather issue. If the courses are profit oriented and not necessarly genuinely concerned with safety (deep air, etc) why would their rebreather courses be any different. Obviously their core group does not require of themselves the same experience comitments they say their standards do. One last thought on this, I don't agree with TDI either in their requiring you to risk your butt in a deep air course too but at least they don't seem to be trying to soak everybody for about a million +/- courses or have hypocritical standards. That at least shows a little integrity to me. In examining both agencies you can see why so many are looking for another agency to step forward and act responsibly or the existing ones go through extensive internal changes. There is really no good choice right now, just poor compromises. Sorry to drag you into this, I'm really not, I'm just venting. Hang in there, I know you do seem to be the target of unrelentless attacks when you really don't deserve them. Jeremy -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send list subscription requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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