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I've been speculating a lot about the Wakulla 2 project, on a lot of things, ranging from where they will find qualified divers for the rebreathers to how much training will it take to get ready to dive in October (it's almost June), etc.. I decided to browse the techdiver list archives today to see if I could find some answers.. With that in mind, let's start with some notable quotes from Richard Pyle (care of the Techdiver list archives, "http://www.aquanaut.com"). As most of you know, Rich has been diving with Cis-Lunar rebreathers since late 1994, and has just returned from a trip to Palau with these things. Rich's rebreather experience seems to be with just the Cis-Lunar model fully closed circuit mixed gas rebreathers. Most of these messages written by Rich were after he had the unit for over 8 months. Considering the units haven't been delivered yet to the guys who are supposed to dive them in October.. Well, let's see what Rich Pyle has to say about the amount of time you need to dive one of these things.. #1:http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?6960,f #rom Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:05:37 +22305714 (HST) From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.Ha*.Or*> Subject: Rebreathers <only relevent information left in> Second, 4-hour rebreather IT's. I actually don't have a problem with this, largely because, as Dennis already pointed out, few or none of these people are actually trying to teach rebreather diving to anyone. I have no doubt that most or all of these individuals are fully capable of teaching the *theory* of rebreathers to students. The only time I will be concerned is if any of these individuals get it in their heads that they are ready to start teaching the *practice* of rebreathers. Todd Ives said it well -- with more than 100 hours on his rebreather, he still considers himself on the learning curve. I am in essentially exactly the same position. The more hours I accumulate, the more I realize how inexperienced I really am. These things require a LOT of time to fully appreciate and understand. The difference between an experienced trimix diver and a qualified basic rebreather diver is GREATER than the difference between a non-diver and an experienced trimix diver. -------------------------------------------------------------------- #2:http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?7006,f #rom Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:14:16 +22305714 (HST) From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.Ha*.Or*> Subject: Re: rebreather screening > Here is a synopsis of IANTD Instructor Standards: 4 day course (pool > and open water), written exams for both ratings. I am uncertain at > this point as to PSA (on the way) and TDI standards and have not > seen IT ratings for rebreathers. > > Rebreather Instructor (for dives up to 130 feet): , 300 logged > dives, Advanced Nitrox Instructor certified as a rebreather diver > (or equivalent military or commercial experience), complete > manufacturers rebreather course, minimum 10 hours on rebreather to > be used for future courses (must be requalified for each unit to be > taught). > > Technical Rebreather Instructor (for rebreather diving past 130 > feet): EANx Rebreather Instructor, Trimix Instructor. Log of 400 > dives, 30 on rebreathers, including 15 on unit instructor will teach > with (min. 20 hours bottom time). Completion of Manufacturers > course. Qualifies to teach only on specific manufacturer's unit. > > Also are included requirements for continuing education and teaching > activity.-Dave > For my two cents.... These standards don't even approach what is necessary to be a qualified rebreather DIVER, let alone a rebreather instructor. I have made several thousand dives, a couple hundred mixed gas dives, and about 100 hours on a rebreather in the ocean to a maximum depth of 260 feet, and I still consider myself a student. I'm not attacking the individuals who created these standards, just strongly suggesting that these standards are not sufficient. Just so there is no confusion, this is my opinion as a diver. I am not in any way shape or form a representive of Cis-Lunar. I do not know what their training standards will be. Aloha, Rich P.S. It's equally as easy to die on a rebreather in less than 130 feet than it is to die at depths greater than 130 feet. Depth has nothing to do with it. Qualifications for deep diving on a rebreather are the same as deep diving on open circuit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- #3:http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?7008,f rom Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:55:54 +22305714 (HST) From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.Ha*.Or*> Subject: Re: rebreather screening > >I have made several thousand dives, a couple hundred mixed gas > >dives, and about 100 hours on a rebreather in the ocean to a > >maximum depth of 260 feet, and I still consider myself a student. > > This seems like a good attitude for anyone who's involved in pushing > any kind of limit, personal or technical. When a teacher stops > being a student, are they still qualified to teach? I will always > consider myself a student. I agree with this general philosophy as well, but in this case I actually meant that I still consider myself a student in the literal sense for rebreather diving. I know that rebreather courses cannot possibly include 100+ hours of in-water time. But perhaps a strict self & agency-imposed "learn as you go" post-course program for all new rebreather divers, such that they would not get their card until 50 hours of in-water use. Anyone not willing to put in these sorts of hours might seriously reconsider why they want a rebreather. Again, I'm not trying to be arrogant or incite flame wars, I just want to share the philosophy I've developed so far. Aloha, Rich Richard Pyle deepreef@bi*.bi*.ha*.or* ******************************************************************* "WHATEVER happens to you when you willingly go underwater is COMPLETELY and ENTIRELY your own responsibility! If you cannot accept this responsibility, stay out of the water!" ******************************************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- #4:http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?7021,f #rom Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 07:36:08 +22305714 (HST) From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.Ha*.Or*> Subject: Re: rebreather screening > Richard, I am sorry, but I do not think that there will be enough > people who meet the "experience standard" that you have highlighted > should be looked for. Rebreathers WILL be here...SOON!!!! I would > rather have a lesser srtingent standard that involves gaining > experience before teaching a higher level than some of the "off the > shelf self taught" standards I have heard are being proferred to > manufacturers & agencies alike. This is NOT the perfect world, and > yes, lesser mortals (no flame intended please) than the "masters" of > the systems > will no doubt die & unfotunately take others with them. I realize there must be a balance struck between the real world and the ideal world, and I admit my suggestions were targeted more towards the ideal world. But honestly....after 10 hours on a rebreather, I was still not ready to dive outside of a swimming pool -- and I'm a pretty fast learner. Also, I didn't mean to imply that a diver needs zillions of open-circuit dives before becoming a qualified rebreather diver. In fact, it's almost irrelevant how many OC dives one has done. The point I've been trying to make is that evryone comes down to almost ground-zero when starting out as a rebreather diver. The skills learned from timix diving will not help much for a diver to use a nitrox rebreather at shallow depths. In other words, a PADI AOW diver with 50 logged dives and a good comprehension of diving physics/physiology will not be far behind an average trimix IT with hundreds of 300+ mixed gas dives when both begin their rebreather training. Both of them are gonna need at least 20, preferably 50, ideally 100 hours of rebreather time before they get much deeper than about 15 feet without several trained open-circuit dive tenders. I'm not worried so much about the experience level of the diver prior to becoming a rebreather diver, I'm only concerned about how much time a person spends learning to be a rebreather diver before s/he starts teaching others to become rebreather divers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- #5:http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?7028,f rom Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:24:40 +22305714 (HST) From: Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.bi*.Ha*.Or*> Subject: RE:Rebreather training > I'll bite Richard, why does it take such extraordinary time to be > skilled at diving a rebreather enough not to have safety divers at > 15 ft? I read the thing about not being able to make small changes > volume/bouancy changes with your breathing. That would be some what > of a help for me as I can't take a full breath of gas or exhale > fully w/o a big change. Can you elaborate on the other problems? > Surely depth control isn't that difficult or why is it? Depth control takes a short time to get used to - that's not the problem. The problem is making sure that the gas you inhale will sustain life. This may not be as big a deal for semi-closed systems (I honestly don't know, I've never been on a semi-closed system), but it is by far the biggest deal with a fully closed system. There is no single rig design or electronic gizmo that will absolutely ensure that the automatic control will continue to function properly. Like I said, I think all rebreather divers will have to enter the water as if they need to manually operate the rig. If the rig is built well, they may never need to, but they must always know how to just in case. More importantly, they need to know how to verify the validity of the O2 sensor readings, and the computer's response to those readings. A good rebreather design will provide the tools to do this, but the tools require practice and experience to correctly use and interpret results. Without these skills, all the bailout options in the world will be superfluous. Other skills, like flooding the loop with water and clearing the water to recover the rig require time and practice. Bailout options require practice. Understanding cause/effect relationships for things like depth changes and manual gas additions on PO2 values takes practice. Habits need to be developed. Divers must learn to check the PO2 with as much instinctivity and with greater frequency than they now check their pressure gauges (PO2 can change more quickly than cylinder pressures). Divers need to become so familiar with the clicking solenoid that they notice when it hasn't clicked in a while. They must learn to distinguish between solenoid firings with no oxygen injection (i.e., out of O2 or a cut-off valve was inadvertently left shut) and solenoids with oxygen injection. Divers must learn to always look at PO2 readings with skeptecism; and if there is ever a discrepency between the sensors, how to figure out why there is a discrepency and which sensors to trust. All this requires time in the water. Also, because during this time the divers are likely to make mistakes, this must all be done in shallow water so that if something goes awry, they know that they can always hit the manual O2 addition and not get a toxic mix. Tenders need to be present so that if the diver goes hypoxic, the tenders can quickly add O2 to the loop and bring the diver to the surface. No one component or diver protocol will ensure that an accident does not occur; it is the summation of all the rig components and the diver's skills that will decrease the chances that s/he will die using it. There are many, many more things, some of which I haven't even learned myself yet. But I think I'm making my point, so I'll stop here. Incidently, if I were a rebreather instructor (and I never intend to be one), I would make all of my students do their first 10 hours on manual mode without any batteries in the unit. Only later would I let them turn the power on. Hope that helps.... Aloha, Rich P.S. One more thing...many/most of these skills will be rig-specific. I would approach a diffent rebreather model with as much caution as I would approach a rebreather for the very first time. Richard Pyle deepreef@bi*.bi*.ha*.or* ******************************************************************* "WHATEVER happens to you when you willingly go underwater is COMPLETELY and ENTIRELY your own responsibility! If you cannot accept this responsibility, stay out of the water!" ******************************************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Let me assure you these are not the only times Rich has expressed these opinions (for the record, he's probably right when it comes to the amount of time it takes to dive a closed circuit electronic mixed gas rebreather safely). I'm just keeping it to these gems for brevity's sake. If I was in charge of letting a group dive in a place like Wakulla, I'd expect to see proof of 100+ hours actual diving experience on these rigs by each diver in the environment they are trying to dive before I'd let them even near the water.. Of course, if I was assuming the liability then I'd really be a pain in the ass about the rules.. Ken -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send list subscription requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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