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Mark, You simply can not be that dumb, can you? Michael J. Kravit Boca Raton, Florida mkravit@mi*.co* (561) 394-6607 ---------- > From: Mark Welzel <mark@mr*.co*> > To: techdiver@terra.net > Subject: Re: My Goodness > Date: Thursday, January 09, 1997 8:17 PM > > You would think that certain Neanderthal characters on this > list would sooner or later give way to thoughtful, intelligent > discussion - but it is obviously not to be. The name calling, > the flaming, the content of messages devoid of technical > anything are making a name for the techdiver list, alright. > > There is so much more to diving than Florida caves and hogarthian > configurations. The egotistical, machismo, pontifications by the > WKRP is quite ridiculous. > > That the tens of thousands of wreck dives conducted safely in > the North East amount to nothing, and yet WKRP's safety record > is tell all is the kind of double standard people are exposed > to here. That there is a "cult" of cave divers is obvious. That > they might stay on the cavers list is too much to hope for. > > The day George realizes that there is an awful lot more to this > planet than his little caves and the pieces of string that mark > his manhood, techdiver will be a better place. Yes, the cave > diving community has a lot to offer in way of technique and > experience. They do not have THE ONLY WAY. They have one way, > wreck divers in the North East have another, Richard Pyle has > his and you can be sure that there are hundreds of differing > ways to dive in thousands of different environments. That one > way is best for all? I would discuss that point with anyone. > > Mark Welzel > come on George, maybe you can call me a NEW name this time, bully! > > ---------------------------- > Richard Pyle wrote: > > > > > Richie, you really need to quit recommending stupid shit to people - because > > > you are such a nice guy, they think you know what you are talking about - you do > > > not - not even close. > > > > Once again, I find myself marveling at the irony of how your statements > > about me EXACTLY match my inclinations about you. > > > > > There are far greater condsiderations in diving that Mr Wizzrdry, and I just > > > proved it by beating your mentor senseless in cave diving rebreathers - this > > > > Who is my mentor? More importantly, who is Mr. Wizzrdry? (Wizardry?) Does > > this have something to do with hanging stage bottles on a line, or have I > > missed something? > > > > > Convoluted "wouldn't it be nices" are crap, and the real test is getting it > > > done and getting it done with the least risk and greatest flexibility to deal > > > with situations . > > > > I've been "getting it done" (finding new species, etc.) at depths in > > excess of 200 feet since the early 1980's. That works out to be almost > > half my entire life. How long have you been "getting it done"? Granted, > > most of this was "naked with the magic stone", and it earned me a year of > > paralysis early on, but these are the ways I have learned how to do this > > stuff "right" (by finding out how to do it "wrong" the hard way). You > > see, you had real mentors - people like Parker and Gavin. Florida cave > > diving has a long history of other cave divers (Sheck, Martz, etc.) with > > good examples to follow. My only instructor was the guy who gave me my > > Basic (not open-water) PADI certification. I picked up a few more cards > > after that one, but never learned anything from the instructors. Back when > > I was figuring this stuff out on my own - in my teens - I didn't even know > > there WERE caves in Florida, let alone people who dived in them. I didn't > > know about the Andrea Doria, or that people dived on it, or that anyone > > dived in that area at all, either. Until AquaCorps came along, I thought > > I was the only guy in the world doing this stuff. I was incredibly > > relieved to find out that I was not. > > > > If you understood evolution (the bioilogical kind), you'd understand the > > significance of concepts such as convergence, and different adaptive > > peaks. Remember when I gave you the lecture about adaptive peaks? Please > > don't tell me the cotton was in your ears. The Florida cavers, and the New > > York wreckers, and the Hawaii fish nerd all arrived at different adaptive > > peaks through learning from their own mistakes and (in the case of the > > cavers and wreckers but not the Hawaii fish nerd) the mistakes of others. > > Many of the early cavers and wreckers died. The Hawaii fish nerd almost > > died. The smart the ones with the right combination of intelligence, > > talent, and luck are still alive today. They've all arrived at different > > adaptive peaks partly because they dive in different environemnts, partly > > because they are conducting different tasks, and partly because they > > devised different solutions to similar problems. In a surprisingly large > > number of cases, they've independently arrived at identical solutions to > > similar problems - this is what we evolutionary types would call > > "convergence". > > > > Now, the only measure I can think of to even roughly approximate a > > comparison between the "rightness" of the different adaptive peaks is > > accident rates (RATES mind you, not shear numbers - that is, the ratio of > > accidents to number of dives done). The Hogarthian system has a large > > number of dives, and a superb (low) accident rate. I don't know what the > > numbers are for the wreckers, but I have a hunch they have both larger > > numbers of accidents, AND larger numbers of dives. What I don't know (and > > I don't think you, or anyone else knows), is what the accident RATE is. > > Personally, I don't care one wit, because the Hawaii fish nerd has the > > best accident rate of all - he's still alive and well. While he doesn't > > have as many total dives as all the cavers combined, or all the wreckers > > combined, his ratio of number of dives to number of divers is probably > > right up there near the top. > > > > > Your one-dimensional solutions which are based on ignorance of > > > available gear > > > and techniques are not the answer, and give away the fact that you have not > > > really put this into play > > > > Dude, get your math right. A cave is linear - it has one dimention. The > > ocean is much more volumetric - it has three dimentions. What does this > > mean? It means stage bottles are one HELL of a lot harder to find in the > > ocean than they are in a cave. That's why we clip them off on lines. > > Come to think of it, don't you guys clip your stages on lines also? It > > seems to me that the only difference is that your lines are horizontal > > and always within your reach, while our lines are vertical and must be > > found with other forms of navigational skill. > > > > > Bullshit does not work underwater > > > > I couldn't agree more. As you say, the proof is in the pudding, and the > > eating thereof. I'm starting to get a little sick of eating so much > > pudding, and I suspect you are as well. > > > > Whew! That was very....theraputic. > > > > Aloha, > > Rich > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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