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Tres asks, at the end of his temperate and objective post: > Maybe you can clear this up for us, Chris Thanks, George, for your confidence and consideration of me in making this request.I'll try to illuminate the subject and answer your concerns about it. Although I didn't address my post to you, I'm pleased that you deigned to invite my opinions and ideas. g.eye-yi-yi said: > While we wre a Wakulla diving this weekend, a tourist came up to where we >stage the gear and said he saw an special by National Geographic about some >cave thing, and all he remembered was that "they killed some guy". Many times, people who are not involved in exploration/cave diving/high-risk activities are *most* impressed by/frightened by/remember the *dangers* involved. Their limited knowledge of the activity/mind-set/process/skills/goals results in focussing on what they fear most: death -- and having no concept of the rest of it, always inquire about/bring up, before anything else, this single aspect. I found this to be true during the years I was an active and frequent skydiver: "Gee, I heard someone fell 10,000 feet to his/her death the other day. Aren't you scared? You must be crazy. Jumping is insane/you're insane." Since the non-participating public only hears (notices) the bad stuff, which is of course what gets publicized (often done to emphasize the drama/excitement and sell papers/mags), they don't know enough to ask about the umpty-million successful jumps/dives/ascents/races/flights, whatever that were made the same day -- and how much fun it is, how safe it is, how it is actually accomplished. Human nature. >What did go on there (Huatla), My impressions/knowledge are limited by the fact that, like you, I wasn't there -- that's why I suggested that list readers see the two articles mentioned and *make up their own minds* -- with the caveat that it's wise to consider the subjectivity of the writer/witness. My only additional information about Huatla (besides the 2 sources cited) are extensive discussions with several team members who were there (in one case, a continuous two day conversation, taking place a couple days after his exiting the cave) -- and who themselves, of course, have differring view-points about your question. BTW, how many of the Huatla team members have you interacted with and queried (to *any* extent) about the events? Something like this might be a good follow-up for you and help you, if not to understand, at least to have a more complete grasp of the details -- more complete, say, than the article you didn't finish reading and the other one which you dismissed because the team leader wrote it. If being written by the team leader, by itself, removes all credibility from a report, then perhaps your posts should be taken with a handful of salt? >what was the point, Exploration? Pushing the limits? Testing selves/equipment/techniques? Hydrogeological and environmental research? "To go where etc.?" What don't you, of all people, understand here? >and what is it that we can expect in the future from this crowd or Nat Geo? Interesting and useful information, to say the least. Or are you implying by your phraseology that "this crowd" or "Nat Geo" achieves nothing more than tragic fatalities? Wouldn't that be a bit far-fetched and begging the question? Two WKPP divers (or three, if you count McFaden, tho' I don't know if WKPP was an official appellation then) have died in the course of local explorations. Did you ask at those sad moments, in your snide way, "what is it that we can expect in the future from this crowd?" That wasn't my reaction, and it would have been just as unfair of me or anyone else to ask such a stupid, prejudiced question as it is for you. >Obviously, we can see what came of it - nothing, That's your opinion, of course. My answer: A great deal of knowledge. >and all that people remember is what this guy said, Addressed above. > which wa that they wacked somebady, "they (Huatla team) wacked somebady" Hmmm... I think this is just as rude, unfair, and illogical an inferrence as saying that, since other WKPP members were present at the time of death, that other WKPP members "wacked" Bill, Parker, and Sherwood. Any other WKPP members have the gumption, or interest in fairness, to comment? Aren't you in the least bit aware that other people are not so dumb (except a few mindless suck-ups who take everything you say at face value) as to buy such fallacious reasoning? >and this was the big event of the show - real cool stuff. Oh. Ok, if that's what you think. But I wonder how you read your gauges with such myopia. > Chris, you are an expert in clusterfucks I claim no expertise in anything really. Although there are enough of your numeris rodomontades and insults to serve as research material for a Ph.D in "Sport Flatulence on the Internet." >and other idiocy,you know all the strokes and can lionize them effectively, Didn't "lionize" - on the contrary: suggested that people read (subjective) published materials and *decide for themselves.* I recognize accomplishments (incl. yours) and human frailties/flaws (same), and exclude neither in my judgements -- of others and myself. At least I give it the old college try. >so why don't you set us straight? No one can "set us straight." Individuals have to gather as much info/ideas/opinions as poss. -- and come to their own conclusions. >I saw the Outside article, but threw it away when I realized that obviously >somebody had carried Stone's guitar a mile up the mountain - he lost me right >there, You missed some good stuff. >and I read the Nat Geo article (which Stone himself wrote, and it seemed >the same only the pictures were better, expecialy the one in Jackson Blue >which >they claimed was Huatla (you could see the entrance in the background), That photo editors at Geo (who don't cave dive and have never been to any of these places) might confuse a photo of practice at Jackson Blue for an on-site expedition photo is, though rare, understandable. Or, perhaps the caption isn't clear and could be unintentionally misleading But I am certain that it is not intentionally misleading. It is an "expedition photo" in that it shows training/prep for Huatla. Difficult concept, but you'll get it eventually. >but only remember what the other guy remembered -nothing accomplished, one >guy dead. When you've done a longer push at Huatla, then you can tell me nothing was accomplished by all/any of the Huatla expeditions. Until then, this comment makes you look pretty silly, Tres. But then, if you did add line there, you'd say no one *before you* had accomplished anything, right? >What is it these people are achieving and what can we learn from it, other >than what we aleady know from Rule Number One? You are indeed fortunate (and a bit lonely, I'd imagine) to have nothing left to learn -- from anyone. >The problem with people like this "people like this" Don't generalize. If others did this, from your example, then they'd think everyone with WKPP is a boor, which is not the case. >is that they ruin it for the rest of us What's ruined? Are you not doing everything you want to do? Diving everything you want to dive? Getting all the pictures and video and publicity for yourself that you want? Is it someone else's activities/style/behavior you must overcome to find satisfaction in life -- or your own? Should every other explorer simply stand down for *your* benefit? Is that the way the world works? You wish. >who are tying to get real scientific results, Gosh, the impression I've gotten, solely due to your own voluminous posts to this effect, is that your penultimate goal in cave diving is having the end of the line. Esp. since anyone who does not have the end of the line is just another stroke, IYNSHO. That leaves, of course, your ultimate goal: telling everyone that *you* have the end of the line, and that they're strokes if they do not. Whatever blows your skirt up. >and as Todd Kincaid points out , everyone just thinks we are a bunch of crazies Nope. Please convey to Todd that I have *never* found *anyone* who does not admire the diving WKPP is doing, in FL and elsewhere -- and all do value the *obviously* significant research. It is with great respect and (sometimes fearful -- for your safety) admiration that other cave divers, who *do* have an inkling of what WKPP diving involves, call you guys "crazy", but only with envy and awe. (In fact, while chatting with 5 or 6 WKPP members at CDS, I couldn't muster the courage to introduce myself to Todd, thinking that, if all he knows of me came from you, he would feel it a waste of time.) Many cave divers feel that the perceived risks and actual risks of pushing the way WKPP does are in fact matched (being extremely high) -- and therefore higher than they care to, or have the need/courage/skill to emulate. It could be likened to Sheck's compulsion, which you claim, after the fact, to have decried: why, with so little margin for problems, hang your ass out so far, and under the limitations of OC, where time/depth/distance are *extremely* unforgiving? And don't try to tell us that little things *can't/won't* cascade beyond the abilities/preparations of the best divers in the world. It just ain't true. So WKPP exploration divers, like Sheck, are perhaps called "crazy" but with grudging admiration. *You* are simply called "crazy" -- both by others in the community and other WKPP divers. > when all these guys do is highlight the risk-taking and the dangers to >make themselves feel like big guys. If self-promotion is a sin, you're going straight to hell. ISTM that you do more pumping of how "bad" you are than anyone I've ever seen. As well as actually being an extremely skilled, brave diver, and talented leader, you are Le Roi de Rodomontade. No one else, no other internet posts, no other publication could ever disabuse me of this notion. I'm sure the rest of us would pleasure ourselves too, if we'd accomplished what you have -- but you have to take your hand off yourself now and then to eat, don't you? >They aren't, and we all know it . The mere fact that THEY can do >this, when we know they can not cave dive, Correction: *you* think they cannot cave dive. How many of "them" have you dived with? Spoken with? Spent time getting to know? Thought so. >means the only danger was the >persistant, consitant, relentless violation of rule number one, and the >disregard for option number one. Put your syrup label at the end of the existing line in Huatla -- then let's discuss this more. If the sole definition of "cave diver" was "who went longest and deepest" then you would be the only cave divers out there. You do a disservice to everyone else in the community, around the world, when you make this kind of self-centered pronouncement -- it is this kind of dissing and arrogance that is criticised -- not your diving. Check into it -- 1st by taking the cotton out of your ears and putting it in your mouth. (Thanks, Parker -- yes, he needed that.) You have developed newbie cave diver acolytes/cult followers who think that way too: "if it ain't past a thousand feet, it ain't a 'real' cave dive and you ain't a real cave diver." Well done! The training and safety agencies, who have been working for decades to emphasize conservativism, diving within your abilities, good judgement, and safety thank you, I'm sure. > But go ahead and set us straight anyway - we don't have idiots to >pay our >bils, If, as you say, you are paying for everything that WKPP does then yes, you do have an idiot paying the bills. ;-) >as we don't break our own sacred rules, Good. No one expects or believes anything less. > and we have guys who are trying to >do research, No one else does any research? How easily you dismiss the efforts of everyone else. Is anyone saying you don't do research? Tell me who and I'll straighten them out. >but who get donwplayed by their peer groups when they publish >thanks to the publicity from the wannabees. Mingle with the masses, Tres, -- the rest of the community whom you regard as strokes -- and listen rather than spout. I'd almost guarantee you that no one has any problems with, or doesn't recognize, the excellent research by WKPP. Which is not to say that *perhaps* even more than what WKPP has so nobly and courageously accomplished might be achieved with other techniques/equipment. > Maybe you can clear this up for us, Chris Thanks for the invitation to try, even from my very limited view/experience. I hope other readers found it useful/informative. It may be beneficial to you, and the rest of WKPP, if other readers publicly express on the lists some of their opinions about what you and I have said. The community does not seem, to me, to be against WKPP at all. I fear that sometimes we (and esp. you) don't get a clear or accurate view of what the community thinks/feels, due to a certain reticence -- borne of your ham-handedness with others' opinions. As a result you view everyone who doesn't have the same viewpoint as you as an enemy. Not necessary! Maybe if others spoke up, agreeing or disagreeing with either of us, we could see a sort of semi-accurate survey. And you might discover that all this time, in your attacks on others, you've been tilting at a wind-bag -- I mean windmill -- that looks suspiciously like -- you. ;-) Yours in the interest of understanding and cooperation, Christopher A. 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