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Nick,

>Have you been reading the posts by the WKPP here?  If, in fact, the 
>members and leaders of WKPP are being quoted out of context, they have a 
>simple answer - get the logs for cavers and techdiver, and bring them in 
>the whole, and show how they were quoted out of context.  Discredit the 
>idiots.

If I have access to "highly placed government officials", as it has been put,
and you don't, it's easy for me to use your words - taken out of context - to
discredit you. And you wouldn't have the chance to prove me wrong, since you
don't have access to the ones passing judgement.

But this is beside the point. What I said is that this kind of tactic is not
an acceptable way to further one's interests. You must agree that it's kind
of low.

>In actual fact, however, they may be being quoted in context.

Do you really believe that?

>The real 
>problem is that many people think of the net as a context, and any quote 
>of on-net activity off of the net is considered out of context.
>
>To some extent, I feel this way myself, but I have no particular *reason* 
>to feel this way, except for a long history on the net.  I believe that 
>it is also a reasonable viewpoint to see it the other way - quotes off of 
>the net of on net activities are to be expected.

There are very good reasons to feel that out-of-the-net quotes of on-net
activity are out of context. What we have on the lists is ongoing dialog,
which cannot be truly comprehended if you don't follow it for a time.

When I joined Scuba-L, one of the first things I found was a big fight 
between you and someone else - I believe it was George. My first impression
of you was of a very aggressive and petty person. Do you believe yourself to
be best described in those terms? Well, neither do I. And it took me some time
listening to what was going on before I understood the whole context, and
realized why you were acting that way: George *can* get on people's nerves
when he wants to.

Then I decided that this George person was an arrogant SOB. It took me some
*more* time to see that yes, he *is* an arrogant SOB, but with very good 
reason to be that way. And THAT'S when I decided that listening to what he 
had to say would be profitable for me.

So, if I hadn't taken the time to follow the ongoing discussion for quite a
while, I would have had a very distorted impression of both you and George.
Yes, Nick, taken what is said on the net *out* of the net *can* be considered
taking it out of context, AND it can be used to unfairly discredit someone. 
Very easily, too.

>My opinion is that the WKPP members and leaders should be prepared to 
>stand behind their words, and to defend them.  George always acts like 
>he is ready to fight anyone anywhere - this is just another chance to do 
>so and to discredit his opponents, if he is in the right.

From George's posts since this incident began, it's clear that he *is*
ready to put up a *very* big fight. Whatever your opinions about George,
you must agree that is not one to run from a fight.

>Politicians, 
>more than anyone, should be familiar with quotes out of context, and 
>should be sensitive to same and be prepared to put them into context.

You must have a higher opinion of politicians than I do. From observation of
both Brazilian and American politics, I don't expect a politician to be able
to tell the vacuum between his ears from a hole in the ground. And don't
expect them to put much thought into this issue, either, since it's low-viz
and therefore of little effect in the polls. They'll probably take a quick
look at whatever is put before them, say something pompous like "Clearly,
these WKPP people do not represent the American ideals" or some such hogwash,
and take a thoughtless action so they can look dynamic and decisive.

>If he loses, of course, this should serve as a reality check.  

Careful, Nick. You're sounding petty again. Like I said, George *can* get on 
people's nerves, and your nerves are no exception.

>He has 
>already convinced the state officials that he (the WKPP) is the one who 
>should have the permits - and it is to be expected that he should need to 
>rejustify them from time to time.

True. But the whole point of this discussion is that he should not be attacked
in such a low manner.

Peace, Nick. I respect you and your opinions a lot. But the fact is that
George's arrogant manners make you mad. But try to accept him as he is, not as
you'd like him to be, and listen to what he has to say. It's almost always
great advice.

Oh, I forgot. We don't have this privilege any more. He got off-line so he 
couldn't be quoted out of context.

Sad, isn't it?

Carlos    8^(

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