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tom,

why is it taking a pair of vise grips to open the valve?  i must 
be missing something here.  you say that it is hard to open when 
it closes.  the plug and seat assembly are the same for either.  
as long as the stem is not bent, neither should be any different.  
there is a gasket in between the handle and bonnet in both cases, 
so that isn't it.  now, i have seen a gsd manifold with the 
little knobs that are shaped like the ones on sherwood y valve.  
my stroke buddy (not dittner) shows up to the water without 
opening the valves.  i barely got them open for him.  i was about 
to give up.  the new style sherwood rubber ones with the large 
vanes are just saying "hey ceiling, shut me down".  the oms, dive 
rite ones are less likely to shut down on the ceiling, but they 
are hard plastic, not rubber.  they will probably not give like 
the rubber ones, thus the stem breaks.  they are the type i keep 
finding on the floor.  

the reverse threads are the real way to go.  it really shouldn't 
be too hard.  just change them for the plug and seat.  we should 
propose it to dive rite.  i'm sure nobody else will listen.  the 
other way to go is the gsd/poseidon style that don't exist 
anymore.  

i still prefer preventing shutting them down to bending the stem.  
when i'm in cave so small that i hit, i am usually swimming 
slowly.  that means i will close the valve, not bend the stem.  
it is probably easier to reopen the rubber ones because you can 
get them moving with less grip.  reaching behind you, this makes 
a difference.  i was never taught to do this.  i know you do and 
agree that it should be part of class.

oh yeah.  i confess.  i have hit the ceiling.  scootering too 
fast, in too low a tunnel, with way too little vis.  my buddy's 
vis behind me was even worse <g>.

this was all more of a thread to force people to think it all 
through before jumping onto george's bandwagon.  i agree with the 
bulk of the wkpp/george ideas, but i can logically think it 
through.  i have seen many different ideas and compare them all 
through trial and error.  nobody does that any more.  too many 
people just aren't thinking any more.  make them all read pirsig.

safe diving,
scott

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