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Carl, please stop! You're making me *think* and my brain hurts! >Jason, > >>I think it only works when there is a commitment on the part of both >>(all) members of the buddy team to make it work. That in my mind > >Agreed. OK done then >>maeans some level of prior practice with each other. Practice as an on > >Areed... But, you haven't said anything that's not true of ANY buddy >or team environment. > >>going event, and in the water a commitment to spend a large part of >>the dive *closely* monitoring the other diver/s. By large I mean >>something like two thirds of the time. I also think that a buddy team > >Nope - sorry, I don't buy this. If you're diving a preplanned dive >and you are familiar with your buddy, it will click. For anyone to >devote *2/3* of the dive time to monitoring their buddy WOULD make it >useless IMO. I would expect this would be a background task that would >take no more than a max of 20% of my attention... (this should draw >some controversy!!!) > Hmm, Ok, 20% is alright, as long as the gaps are small. Ie a *quick* check every 5-10 seconds, and a longer check every minute or so. I suppose that it would take even less than 20% of my *attention*, but a fair bit of my time. >>needs to stay in constant contact with each other. Not continual >>contact, *constant*. They need to be in touching distance, or >>connected by a buddy line. > >I again disagree - they need to be within a reasonable distance based >on the parameters of the dive. If they're inside a wreck with a >chance of silting, touching or buddy line is good, but outside a wreck >taking a tour with no intention of penetration/etc some reasonable >distance would be fine... It just really depends on how in tune the >two of you are. It's like this for me; How much time do you feel is too much for digging out your pony reg? If my buddy is my redundant gas supply, then I don't want them to be further away than that. See what I mean? If you would consider it to be OK to carry a pony setup that takes 30 seconds to acess, then you can have your buddy 30 seconds away. If you feel that the pony reg must be close enough that you just need to reach out and grab it, then your buddy must be close enough that you can reach out an grab them. >>I don't think the nature of OW trimix diving is condusive to this type >>of close buddy team work. Cave diving on the other hand, may be another >>matter. From what I've seen posted by the WKPP (George in particuar) >>they seem to fill all the requirements of a buddy team "doing it right". > >Again - disagree - wreck penetration could be very much likened to >cave diving - similar types of hazards - siltout/etc - similar >environment. You have to work as a *team* in both environments - >assuming you're *attemping* the OW buddy stuff Jason :^) I said "may be" not "is" ;) I don't really think that buddy diving can work. Well, let me rephrase that, I've never seen buddy diving work, except my brother and I. We were trained together, and we work well together, except 1. he doesn't trust me underwater since I snatched the reg out of his mouth when we were kids, and 2. he has moved inland. > >Now, I'm *NOT* saying tha there aren't some *environments* in which a >team MAY not be practical, but I'd need a lot of convincing - more >than Jason will need until he trys a manifold though :^) Funny, I haven't found an environment where buddy diving *is* practical (though I was prepared to say that Tallahassie (Sp?) power cave could be one such environment, as I know very little about it) [Snip drag] >>>But, you later admit to a lower task loading with a manifold. That >>>*is* a useful function IMNSHO. > >>Only a lower task loading during "normal" diving. During an emergency, >>when seconds count, the manifold will use up plenty of them (seconds >>that is, and gas with them) > >First of all, isn't MOST diving "normal" diving? We could discuss >whether raising the task loading on ALL of your diving is worth a >raising the task loading on a very small percentage of problems? I think it is worth it. Just like it is worth the task loading of carrying a pony, to lower the task loading during the very small percentage of dive time, during which you would otherwise have nothing to breathe. >And, this is *only* during an emergency *with the manifold or reg >you're breathing * - and as has been demonstrated, these are FEW and >far between. I'd argue that the manifold makes dealing with OTHER >problems easier... I'd argue that an independent system makes dealing with *other* problems easier. Once you have *other* problems, you are on your way up/out/back. With indies, this means you're now diving something very like a single, with a very big pony. No reg swaps, no hassles. >Has this been beaten to death yet? Others have said that they can >reach their manifold in a VERY few seconds. Now, manifolds are >starting to look pretty damn good... Ready yet Jason :^) But it seems such a waste of very important seconds. I can't see what I gain which would induce me to part with those vital seconds. >>>Shit - I don't know about you, but when I bump something, I mean, even >>>*touch* it I notice. Bumping something hard enough to TURN a handle >>>on an isolation manifold - come on now Jason, who do you think you're >>>kidding on THAT one!!! > >>This one I stand by. The "reg failure" I mentioned before, was due >>to me turning off the valve for that cylinder due to contact with the >>roof. It took me a couple of minutes to twig that was the problem. >>I was more interested in getting out! > >And you didn't notice hitting the roof? - WOW, maybe I'm just a >sensitvie guy :^) but when anything EVER touches something that's not >part of my setup I notice it. Oh I noticed it alright. I had to breathe out to squeeze through. And wriggle, and there ain't no way I could have reached behind my head at that point ;) [snip task loading] >>Shit, I'm gona get myself talked into manifolds if this keeps up! >>However, the "task load" of an inde system, is the reg swap. These >>can always be delayed (a bit) if things go really wrong. Also if > >Not if it's something that goes wrong with the reg you're breathing. >After all, the manifold allows you to forget about reg swaps except >for a problem with the reg you're breathing or the other side of the >manifold. Seems like it's pretty similar to the independant case, >except for the higher task loading associated with switching gasses. Carl! you're switchin' horses in mid stream! We were talking about *other* problems (ie not reg or manifold related) I don't see a higher task load associated with switching gasses in either system. A gas switch means you take out one reg, and pop in another. Yes? >>things go really wrong, then you are turning the dive, right? The >>whole idea of an inde system is that *any cylinder will get you >>back from any point in the dive*. So if the shit hits the fan, >>then you *don't need* to swap regs again! > >Pretty much the same for a manifold. You either stick with the reg >you're on OR you switch *once* - nothing different here. > >>Phew! Thought I might have to lash out on a manifold there, but >>I've escaped again. > >Nope - you're trapped - what was your VISA number :^) I believe >Sea Elite is the one that George prefers... I'm not following how I got trapped, I thought I was home free?!? [snip the story about a manifold diver, who gets into strife] >>dive, and exit safely on the gas in the first cylinder. Oh, and >>yes you aren't getting the full story, Sorry. > >Come on Jason - change the names to protect the stroke, but give us >the full poop... :^) Love to, but can't, everyone would pick him from the description of the events (if I included the equipment that gave him the heart ache. (I didn't make it up! X my heart and hope to drown) >>>By the way, I'm just playing devils advocate, I see positives and >>>negatives to both sides... But, without a manifold, how do you carry >>>the twin tanks P:^) > >>Isn't that what girlfriends are for? > >Better not tell my wife then :^) > >-Carl- > With indes you can split them up, and get the girls to take one each! (without draining them) Cheers Jason =:) PS. I'm sorry this has got so long, (Bad Carl, naughty Carl! Sit! Stay!)
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