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Hi All, Damn, this was an easy task shooting down manifold divers, and then I got cocky and invited Carl into it. The points he raises are just *hard* to counter. (If I can't then I'm gona have to get a manifold!) Well, here goes! ********* Jason, Well, so far at least no one has flamed me :^) >redundancy" and I agree with that. Trouble is that in OW trimix >(the subject of this discussion) buddy diving just doesn't work. Are you saying it doesn't work there, or anywhere??? ****** I think it only works when there is a commitment on the part of both (all) members of the buddy team to make it work. That in my mind means some level of prior practice with each other. Practice as an on going event, and in the water a commitment to spend a large part of the dive *closely* monitoring the other diver/s. By large I mean something like two thirds of the time. I also think that a buddy team needs to stay in constant contact with each other. Not continual contact, *constant*. They need to be in touching distance, or connected by a buddy line. I don't think the nature of OW trimix diving is condusive to this type of close buddy team work. Cave diving on the other hand, may be another matter. From what I've seen posted by the WKPP (George in particuar) they seem to fill all the requirements of a buddy team "doing it right". ******** >I only *know* of one. How many do you need? They cost money, trap >line, have mass, can dump gas, create drag and have no useful Sorry - on this drag bit, I don't buy it. They're not offering up any more surface volume in the direction you're swimming than the tanks underneah them, and, in fact, they *may* give you a little more streamlining. I'm not prepared to argue strongly either way, but, it's CERTAINLY not as clut and dry on the drag as Jason says. ******* Ok I'll pay that one, the drag bit was dumb ******* >function. Surely you would be better off carrying a christmas tree >with you. They cost less, can't dump gas, have a *zero* failure rate >and have no useful function (just like a manifold), oh and create drag >and trap line too! But, you later admit to a lower task loading with a manifold. That *is* a useful function IMNSHO. ******* Only a lower task loading during "normal" diving. During an emergency, when seconds count, the manifold will use up plenty of them (seconds that is, and gas with them) ******* >How closed is "mostly closed" and how much would it take to have >it bumped "fully closed" or less closed, ie more open? Shit - I don't know about you, but when I bump something, I mean, even *touch* it I notice. Bumping something hard enough to TURN a handle on an isolation manifold - come on now Jason, who do you think you're kidding on THAT one!!! ******* This one I stand by. The "reg failure" I mentioned before, was due to me turning off the valve for that cylinder due to contact with the roof. It took me a couple of minutes to twig that was the problem. I was more interested in getting out! ******* >Yep I think you are right on this. I think he got over task loaded. >Which sort of backs me up on my feeling that manifolds have a lower >task loading normally, and a higher task loading in an emergency. IMO, lower task loading is great. That gives the manifolded diver a better chance at dealing with OTHER emergencies that might crop up. Now, if we could quantitatively assess those others in real probabilistic terms, we might be able to show how manifolds have a distinct advantage!!! ******* Shit, I'm gona get myself talked into manifolds if this keeps up! However, the "task load" of an inde system, is the reg swap. These can always be delayed (a bit) if things go really wrong. Also if things go really wrong, then you are turning the dive, right? The whole idea of an inde system is that *any cylinder will get you back from any point in the dive*. So if the shit hits the fan, then you *don't need* to swap regs again! Phew! Thought I might have to lash out on a manifold there, but I've escaped again. ******** The point is though, that the manifolded diver only had to deal with the SAME task loading as an independant diver and he screwed up... What else was involved here, because if a mix certified diver screws up on a SIMPLE thing like this, either we're not getting the whole story (Jason said in another postthat he had a *couple* of oher gear related problems to deal with!!!)... On a dive like this, if someone has a *couple* of problems and doesn't abort the dive, what does this say about him??? ****** I disagree that it was the same task load as an inependents diver. The reg swap would have been done *before* the cylinder he was breathing was out. If he couldn't do the swap, he would turn the dive, and exit safely on the gas in the first cylinder. Oh, and yes you aren't getting the full story, Sorry. ****** By the way, I'm just playing devils advocate, I see positives and negatives to both sides... But, without a manifold, how do you carry the twin tanks P:^) -Carl- ****** Isn't that what girlfriends are for? Cheers Jason =:)
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