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>    I don't mind you fucking with me too much, as long as it's for a
>purpose, not just to win debate points.

There is much more to debates than winning, usually.

>   Actually, I don't totally disagree with you here..I vote for whatever 
> gets the job done safely.
>Just keep in mind the extremely high traffic and general level of
>(in)experience this location sees. I think the larger mooring point
>probably keeps the lines here from having to be repaired/replaced on
>an almost daily basis. The size of the arrow/triangle itself really
>does nothing to contribute or detract from the safety of the situation
>that I can see, small or large.

What makes this large piece of plastic better at holding a note than the 
line itself?  It serves the same purpose as a road sign on the side of I10.

>   Neither is going in w/o a reel at all, that is total bullshit, no
>matter how qualified you are.

I think those that are going to the main line w/o a reel are not in need of 
developing the experience of running a reel.  This is certainly not 
something that the masses should try, and I do not advocate it, save to say 
there are safer ways to dive than what is currently taught by most.  I 
would also say that those that practice this are usually on motors, lowered 
air consumption great ability to cover distance, and do so only in a 
limited number of caves.

>  As you say, should little river merit some special status? Nope, 
> continuous guideline, all the way out of
>the overhead environment. As for students, I'll comment on that in a minute.

Easiest answer is to run the line all the way to the surface.  No reels 
needed, sure it might "entice" a curious soul or two into a cave, most of 
which are going anyway, but it would probably provide them with a means of 
egress as well.  However, since this is not going to happen in most caves, 
and the industry will continue to teach, attempt to in most cases, the art 
of running a primary reel, the line that they are running to should be 
further into the cave than a gap reel.


>   When did we start lining caves as instructional aids? You might as
>well argue that there should be NO permanent lines in ANY caves. That
>would sure make students work.And everyone else as well.

It is not the line that is the instructional aid, it is the practice of 
running the reel that is the instructional aid.

>    You can't "make" new divers work to develop skills;either they have
>the right attitude & commitment to improving their techniques, or they
>don't. You CAN fail to pass or certify them if they don't demonstrate
>this attitude during their training,

Have you seen the novice, or for that matter the average experienced diver, 
population at work lately?  There are people that are being turned out in 
record numbers who can't walk and chew gum simultaneously.  Some individual 
instructors will follow the rules of logic and common sense and others will 
follow the money.

>but once certified, the
>individual diver has to take the responsibility for maintaining or
>improving their skills to the levels required for the dives they do.
>In this respect, we should all consider ourselves students forever;
>the learning should never stop.

Agree and it applies to all aspects of life.

>  Rather, design things for general efficiency and encourage/require 
> responsible decision making
>as a prerequisite for getting that learner's permit in the first place.

In an ideal world yes, but this world is far from ideal, it is driven by 
money; and as such there will always be those that barely meet the minimum 
out there participating with the rest of us.  This sport is not for 
everyone, it should be hard and require some sweat and blood to become 
active.  People should work for what they have not have it handed to them 
because they can afford it.  This does not happen and that is one of the 
reasons we do not need to complacently sit by and watch as the requirements 
for participation in this sport become easier.
Scott Hunsucker

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