Al, my experiences with scar tissue, and I have a
ton of it from injuries and operations to fix
injuries, is that it does indeed get bent for the
first few weeks after the injury or operation, but
then ceases to be an issue. You will find that about
three hours after a dive it will start to hurt as
the bubbles in it gather gas and peak, especially if
you have been diving air at any depth.

JJ and I both have had knee problems from college
days, for instance, and now neither of us get any
repercussions if we do our deco correctly, and as
you know, we do it very fast.

I'd avoid diving initially if you don't want the
pain, but I never cared about it, so dove injured
anyway. I did that Bird Sink smoke job New Years Day
two days after my last knee operation, and had to
use crutches to get to the water. One of the guys
took my doubles and put them in the water so I could
get them on. Actually, my knee felt better after the
dive and I no longer needed the crutches after that
day.

If there is chronic pain, use helium in you deco
gasses. JJ does that . Also shorten the intermediate
stops where you might pick up too much nitrogen.
Nitrogen seems to be the culprit in scar tissue pain
as far as we can tell.

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
To: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
Cc: Todd Baldi <todd_baldi@ho*.co*>;
scottk@hc*.co* <scottk@hc*.co*>;
mhkane@pr*.ne* <mhkane@pr*.ne*>;
techdiver@aq*.co* <techdiver@aq*.co*>;
cavers@cavers.com <cavers@cavers.com>
Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: Most Important Piece fo Equipment
wasRe: Series of recent deaths


>Trey,
>
>What has your experience been with individuals with
scar tissue, notably
>scar tissue across bone, muscle and tendon/ligament
areas? are you
>finding that divers with these preconditions bend
easier? can they
>tolerate the deco or do they have problems? Is
there any difference if
>the scars are sports injuries or surgical in
nature? feel free to reply
>privately and in confidence if you feel the need
too.
>
>The lists dont know this, but ill own up to it-Trey
and I talked about
>it in Virginia Beach. I had some work done on my
right hand and on my
>back before I got into diving to correct some
things that were well
>accidents of genetics and a misspent youth basicly.
I never considered
>it until i was fairly well along in diving< thank
you PADI>, and had
>looked the elephant squarely in the eye and decided
i liked it too much
>to give it up. I have not had it affect my diving
in any way that i have
>observed or recognized but I am still
understandably curious.
>
>And not to get off topic, but I think this
basically marks me as a
>stroke for life, but i can deal with that.
>
>rgds,
>
>Al Marvelli
>
>Trey wrote:
>
>> The lack of fitness weeds the divers out - I do
not
>> need to do it. Of our fatalities, one was a cave
in,
>> one was out of shape and using drugs and alcohol,
and
>> violating my current rules for stage bottles, one
was
>> diving deep air and was left by his "buddy".
That was
>> before I ran the project.
>>
>> Being in shape is more of a being able to put it
all
>> together and do the big stuff easily thing - it
will
>> not keep you alive if you are screwing up
otherwise.
>>
>> A great comparison is to look at the rejects
Stone
>> used in his project - always sick, bent, tired,
cold
>> miserable and taking days and days to recover
from
>> bullshit dives in a chamber, vs my cave stallions
who
>> can do two dives in one day bigger than anything
done
>> in the Stone project and be at dinner that night
>> feeling perfect, and then dive the next day.
>>
>>  On the last record dive JJ and I did, two weeks
ago,
>> we went 19,000 feet each way at 300, and I was
out of
>> the water in time to have dinner with my son up
at
>> Florida State University. All conditioning there.
>>
>> >George,
>> >
>> >Thanks for the response. I know you have bounced
>> people from dive sites for
>> >having stroke gear etc... but I wondered what
you did
>> if someone didn't show
>> >the same commitment to taking care of themselves
on a
>> regular basis.
>> >
>> >I noticed you do rip people new ones for diving
>> stroke gear but the one
>> >thing I never see mentioned on a lot of these
posts
>> about fatalities is "Was
>> >the person in shape?"
>> >
>> >I would think that would rank right up there
with
>> "Was he diving stroke
>> >gear?" but I dont ever see the fitness question
>> addressed when people post
>> >about a fatality.
>> >
>> >Todd
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
>> >>To: "Todd Baldi" <todd_baldi@ho*.co*>,
>> <scottk@hc*.co*>,
>> >><mhkane@pr*.ne*>
>> >>CC: <techdiver@aq*.co*>,
<cavers@cavers.com>
>> >>Subject: Most Important Piece fo Equipment
wasRe:
>> Series of recent deaths
>> >>Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:36:35 -0400
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Todd, I do not "require" any workout regimen
out of
>> my
>> >>divers, I merely lead by example. It is pretty
>> >>embarrasing when  48 yer old guy can severely
out
>> gun
>> >>the 20-30 year old's in every measure of
athletic
>> >>performance, stamina , strength fitness and
look. I
>> do
>> >>not have to do anything but take my shirt off
to get
>> >>that point across, and remind them who never
gets
>> >>cold, tired , injured or bent. They take it
from
>> >>there.
>> >>
>> >>Obviously,JJ and  my top guns are in the same
>> category
>> >>as me. While other than JJ they are not all
around
>> >>tops in every category, they all do what they
do
>> very
>> >>seriously. Many are marathon runners, Iron Man
>> >>triatheletes, sprint triatheletes, Masters
swimmers,
>> >>or cyclists.
>> >>
>> >>My main message and example is show up every
day and
>> >>do something, no matter what, and that is what
I
>> have
>> >>done for my whole life, with even more
intensity the
>> >>last ten years. Besides being the key to
fitness, it
>> >>is the key to longevity and quality of life and
>> health
>> >>in every regard.
>> >>
>> >>I have no aches or pains, no problem doing
anyting ,
>> >>no problem running or lifting weights with my
19
>> year
>> >>old son, no problem doing the Iron Man, etc. I
can
>> >>still bench press more than twice my weight and
run
>> a
>> >>sub 11 second 100 yds. or do any distance
swimning,
>> >>running or on the bike.
>> >>
>> >>I guess you could say I effectively "require"
>> fitness
>> >>since to do the dives I ask thes guys to do, it
is
>> >>essential. Diving and especaily diving in the
WKPP
>> >>seems to get people thinking fitness in every
way.
>> >>Most no longer drink, obviously do not smoke,
smoke
>> >>pot or use drugs, and most take fitness and
health
>> >>very seriously.
>> >>
>> >>Some of the girls on the team are the same:
Dawn
>> >>Kernagis can kick some ass on a bike or a swim,
and
>> >>Pina can run like a rocket forever. It really
shows
>> on
>> >>the dopler tests.
>> >>
>> >> >George,
>> >> >
>> >> >I read a lot on the list and the WKPP website
>> >>regarding gear configuration
>> >> >but I rarely see any mention of the most
important
>> >>piece of equipment, your
>> >> >body.
>> >> >
>> >> >I am familiar with your workout regimine
through
>> >>private emails and some
>> >> >discussion on the list. Could you please give
a
>> >>rundown on what the other
>> >> >WKPP divers do to maintain their shape.  Is
there
>> >>some set workout rountine
>> >> >that you require for WKPP divers? Plus what
>> training,
>> >>other than what is
>> >> >listed on your forms do you require your
divers to
>> go
>> >>through?
>> >> >
>> >> >Thanks,
>> >> >Todd
>> >> >
>> >> >>From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
>> >> >>To: "Scott" <scottk@hc*.co*>, "MHK"
>> >><mhkane@pr*.ne*>
>> >> >>CC: "List - Technical Diver"
>> >><techdiver@aq*.co*>, <cavers@cavers.com>
>> >> >>Subject: Re: Series of recent deaths
>> >> >>Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:22:22 -0400
>> >> >>
>> >> >>go to http://www.wkpp.org and then
"Equipment"
>> and
>> >> >>then the DIR gear config article - it is all
>> there.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>The direct url is
>> >>
>>http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/newgeorge.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Try to understand it in its entirety.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >> >>From: Scott <scottk@hc*.co*>
>> >> >>To: George Irvine <trey@ne*.co*>; MHK
>> >> >><mhkane@pr*.ne*>
>> >> >>Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 3:01 PM
>> >> >>Subject: Fw: Series of recent deaths
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >From: "Scott" <scottk@hc*.re*.co*>
>> >> >> >Newsgroups: rec.scuba
>> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 12:00 PM
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: Series of recent deaths
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Its going to get worse before it gets
better.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The more people die, the louder We
bitch, and
>> >>the
>> >> >>harder they argue and
>> >> >> >look
>> >> >> >> elsewhere for a place to put the blame.
>> >>Disclaimers
>> >> >>keep you out of court,
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> court isn't the only authority people
are
>> going
>> >>to
>> >> >>have to answer to.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am almost pissed off at Maffatone.
What a
>> >>waste.
>> >> >>Everyone said shit like
>> >> >> >> "Oh, he died doing what he loved." Fuck
that
>> >> >>bullshit. He died
>> >> >> >> traumatically, scared and alone. There
was
>> >>nothing
>> >> >>glamorous about his
>> >> >> >> death. He drowned. Its was simply a
fucking
>> >>waste
>> >> >>of a good man, and a
>> >> >> >> veteran. He was not only a feather in
the cap
>> of
>> >> >>his friends, he was a
>> >> >> >> feather in the cap of our country. As
long as
>> >> >>people accept a *needless*
>> >> >> >> death like this, and justify it because
he
>> was
>> >> >>"doing what he loved", more
>> >> >> >> are doomed to follow. Its all in the
mindset,
>> >> >>people. I didn't know the
>> >> >> >man,
>> >> >> >> and imagine it would be quite a
privilege to
>> >>have
>> >> >>made his acquaintance.
>> >> >> >> Those of you who did know him, will miss
him.
>> >>Those
>> >> >>of us who didn't know
>> >> >> >> him are glad we don't have the pain you
do.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> And for what? I cant really find any
good
>> lesson
>> >> >>from this mans death.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> People who get pissed about the list
"Reasons
>> >>for
>> >> >>you strokes to shut the
>> >> >> >> fuck up and listen", will have to get
used to
>> >>the
>> >> >>idea of the existence of
>> >> >> >> the list, because it is growing
>> exponentially.
>> >>Its
>> >> >>continued growth is fed
>> >> >> >> by greed, ego, stupid pride, and
politeness.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Scott
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "MHK" <mhkane@PR*.NE*> wrote in
message
>> >> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>>news:8mup78$26n4$1@ne*.ne*.pr*.co*.
...
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Given that there have been a series of
>> recent
>> >> >>tragedies, I hope everyone
>> >> >> >> > will take an extra minute or so prior
to
>> there
>> >> >>next dive and take a look
>> >> >> >> at
>> >> >> >> > there diving..  Hopefully you'll ask
>> yourself,
>> >>is
>> >> >>there anything I can
>> >> >> >do
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> > make this dive safer.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > It seems, based upon the accounts that
I
>> have
>> >> >>reviewed, that most of
>> >> >> >these
>> >> >> >> > deaths were some experienced divers.
>> >>Complacency
>> >> >>kills, and I know we
>> >> >> >> like
>> >> >> >> > to have a bunch of fun on this NG and
beat
>> >>each
>> >> >>other up now and again.
>> >> >> >> But
>> >> >> >> > no matter what side of the DIR coin
you
>> side
>> >>on,
>> >> >>please take a fresh
>> >> >> >look
>> >> >> >> at
>> >> >> >> > your diving and try to remain safe..
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > The only remaining contribution these
>> diver's
>> >>can
>> >> >>leave us with is that
>> >> >> >we
>> >> >> >> > can look at there mistakes and learn
from
>> >>them.
>> >> >>Death is an unfortunate
>> >> >> >> > byproduct of our sport and should be
looked
>> at
>> >>as
>> >> >>a learning tool.  What
>> >> >> >> can
>> >> >> >> > be learned, and how can we avoid it
from
>> >> >>happening again..
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > My condoleseces to all the families
that
>> have
>> >> >>suffered, may they rest in
>> >> >> >> > peace..
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Stay safe....
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Regards
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>--
>> >> >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list
to
>> >>`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>> >> >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >>`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>> >> >
>> >>
>>
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>> >
>>
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