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Lee, knock of the crap - we are not talking "solo" diving per se, we are talking the attitude that an idiot like Raniker teaches. We are talking the ridiculous argument you make in favor of incompetence and bad attitude, the argument you make in favor of not having any cave diving skills, and we are talking why somebody like you feels the need to run out in defense of the worst idiots in our sport and in the process embarrass yourself with a display of "boat missing" that begs the question, "how did you last so long"? The answer is that much like the strokes you defend and the other "old timers", no real diving is done and the "1200 cave dives" is more likely 120 trips to Ginnie and about 50 other abortions and clusterfucks , or fake "projects" like those two Jim King embarrassements where the cake eaters on air had accidents and a death. If there is something you do not "agree" with me on, let's hear it and discuss that, and skip the fabrications and the support of the indefensilbe. Rennaker is a disgrace to diving, and I will argue that as long as you want to play. Lee Gibson and Lucy Bonilla wrote: > > Bill, > I am a conservative. I wouldn't vote Democrat if they were the only ones > running. I have no disdain for the WKPP. I don't dislike George. I just don't > agree with him on everything(nor do I agree with Mr. Rennaker on everything). > George started the name calling, ego jousting, and golf promoting. And being in > the WKPP is not the HOLY GRAIL of cave diving. The truth is that I am secure in > my abilities and enjoy the diving that I do. I am laying line in two different > virgin systems and have just purchased sink hole access to the Lafayette Blue > system. In my free time I work in the ED or take off for cave diving in > Mexico. I reiterate...Solo diving is not for everyone or for all dives. I > don't promote it. I just feel that if the situation calls for it, it can be a > viable option. > Lee Gibson > Bill Mee wrote: > > > Lee, > > > > Articulate liberals are very much in demand on the talk radio circuit > > because these people demonstrate remarkable skill in defending the > > indefensible or the stupid. The really good ones, like Hillary Clinton, > > Dick Gephart and James Carville are arrogant, in your face and belligerent. > > You are beginning to sound this way, although I have no idea about your > > political orientation. > > > > You came running out in defense of Rennnaker's demented justification of > > solo diving with your own twist on the matter. Naturally, your response was > > filled with all of the venom, sarcasm and condecension of someone who long > > ago formed a rock solid disdain for the WKPP and it's director, G. Irvine. > > You have a real attitude problem and some sort of self image problem to boot > > when you make statements like the following to Irvine: > > > > >> Lee Gibson Wrote: > > >>"You might > > >> find what I do to be too big, dark, and scary. I will look for you with > > your > > >> putter in your hand. > > > > BS like the above is why you will never dive with the WKPP, not because you > > don't have what you mistakenly believe is "right stuff". > > > > Tough guy boneheadedness is not what exploration is all about. It is about > > team work first and foremost with skill, planning and attention to detail a > > close second. > > > > Statements like: > > > > >> How many > > >> side-mount zero visibility bedding plane restrictions have you been > > through > > >> in "your time cave diving"? Judging from your position I would say ZERO. > > > > only amplifiy why you don't get it. > > > > Lee, we do not place ourselves in stupid situations and then congratulate > > ourselves on how smart, clever and brave we are for beating the reaper or > > extricating ourselves from some near death situation. If the dive cannot be > > performed as a team or a situation can not be negotiated as a team or where > > team assistance cannot be provided, then we do not go there or do it. You > > obviously need to let us know that you are a big tough guy and can swallow > > the swords. > > > > When people talk this way it implies that they are trying to prove something > > to themsleves or their peers. You did have to tell us all about your 1200 > > cave dives over 20 years. So what? You may think this is the real mark of a > > macho guy, but it in fact is the telltale sign of a dangerous stroke. > > > > You and Rennaker try to justify solo diving primarily because you feel that > > skill in this will save your life when your stroke buddy leaves you or silts > > you out or commits some other egregious act. This is akin to wearing an > > asbestos suit to protect yourself against immolation from the gas can you > > are carrying in your front seat to compensate for your inadequate gas tank. > > All this is complete nonsense and it amazes me that most everyone in the > > WKPP understands this, but a well educated, obviously intelligent person > > such as yourself has such a hard time with it . > > > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > > To: Lee Gibson and Lucy Bonilla <lonestar@al*.ne*> > > Cc: cavers list <cavers@cavers.com> > > Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 1:50 PM > > Subject: Re: Solo Diving Article, NACD > > > > >Lee , being an arrogant , condecending pussy is not an admirable trait. > > >You believe whatever makes you feel better in regard to me, and show > > >everyone who understands the obvious how stupid that sounds. Clearly I > > >know nothing about any kind of cave diving, certainly not as compared to > > >the great Lee Gibson. > > > > > >You are the kind of chest-beating Barney Fife weenie I really dispise. I > > >was in the ER at Broward General and one of the doctors told me he met a > > >"real big time cave diver" that was a doctor up in Gooberville - he was > > >talking about your description of yourself to him. I would be > > >embarrassed to be such a stroke as to say something like that. You tell > > >everyone what a big timer you are and then come on here and prove > > >ignorance beyond the pale displayed with an arrognace unmatched even by > > >Hillary Clinton. > > > > > >You deal in half logic, one dimensional, static moronity that one would > > >expect form a rigid thinking mongoloid, yet you are a doctor, and you > > >are so misdirected and so irresponsible as to come on here and endorse > > >the babblings of a farm animal. > > > > > >When we get silted out, we use the tools at our dipoosal to deal with > > >it, like hearing your buddies breathing, like being in touch contact, > > >like knowing what his proceedures will be ( not cut and run, fuck your > > >buddy, Lee - sorry), like alternately cupping and showing the light so > > >as to see his glow or have him see yours, planting and sweeping, > > >clipping in for a "no miss" pass, etc. > > > > > >I don't think anyone is interested in anything that is coming from any > > >of the "old timers" in cave diving - you guys' record speaks for itself, > > >and so does mine and the record of my team and my teammates. There is > > >real information out there, only none of you have any of it. > > > > > > > > >Lee Gibson and Lucy Bonilla wrote: > > >> > > >> I don't believe training should include solo diving, but it should be > > >> recognized and avoided if you are not prepared to deal with it. How many > > >> side-mount zero visibility bedding plane restrictions have you been > > through > > >> in "your time cave diving"? Judging from your position I would say ZERO. > > I > > >> just pushed one 200' in a virgin system in the Suwannee River to break > > out > > >> into Florida Room size passage to a penetration of 1500' with more leads > > to > > >> push. A buddy ahead of me could not get turned around to help me nor > > vice > > >> versa. So if I have a problem in that bedding plane I better have a fool > > proof > > >> plan for self rescue...sounds a lot like solo diving doesn't it. You > > might > > >> find what I do to be too big, dark, and scary. I will look for you with > > your > > >> putter in your hand. > > >> Lee > > >> > > >> kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote: > > >> > > >> > No, Lee , you are missing the point - proper training shows you how to > > >> > easily solve these problems, and in my time cave diving, that training > > >> > has allowed me and my dive partners to handle these with ease - in > > fact, > > >> > it IS CAVE DIVING. > > >> > > > >> > Rennaker is an idiot, plain and simple. > > >> > > > >> > Also, the attitude of a "stroke" is what you describe below. Lee, if > > >> > this is so big, dark and scary - DON'T DO IT - take up golf. > > >> > > > >> > Lee Gibson and Lucy Bonilla wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > I think some of you are missing the point of the "most important > > person" > > >> > > concept. Mr. Rennaker is just being honest about basic human nature. > > >> > > When things are the worst we all revert to our survival instincts > > >> > > despite the best intentions. Recent case, the Jackson Blue incident > > >> > > also detailed in the Journal (and let me emphasize that I am not > > sitting > > >> > > in judgment of these divers), > > >> > > three divers entered the system. At maximum penetration they had a > > silt > > >> > > out and lost communication with each other...they became solo divers. > > >> > > Two of them were able to regroup attempt a search and then exit...the > > >> > > third was left behind. As the two exited their stress levels were > > >> > > obviously elevated with self preservation being the priority. When > > they > > >> > > reached their safety bottles, three full 80cf at 1000', neither > > diver > > >> > > elected to pick up the bottles and go back in to search some > > more....the > > >> > > thought of getting out was paramount and understandable. In all > > cases > > >> > > self rescue is better than buddy rescue and should be taught in that > > >> > > order. > > >> > > As for solo diving, it should be made as a cognitive choice not as an > > >> > > outcome of circumstance. The divers at Jackson had no intention of > > solo > > >> > > diving, but for a time it occurred. Mr. Rennaker's article eludes to > > >> > > these types of scenarios.....swimming or scootering too far apart, > > loss > > >> > > of visibility > > >> > > without touch contact, long one-man restrictions, stressed or task > > >> > > overloaded diver....these scenarios are "solo dives" and should be > > >> > > avoided if you are not prepared for them. The other type of solo > > diving > > >> > > is intentional, even if a "buddy" is in the water. Small system > > >> > > exploration being the best example. It requires special gear, > > training, > > >> > > and mind set. Solo diving can and is being done safely on a routine > > >> > > basis by a small number of experienced cave divers. They just don't > > >> > > advertise or promote the activity...solo diving definitely is not for > > >> > > everyone, but neither is cave diving for that matter. > > >> > > Lee Gibson > > >> > > Matt London wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > I was also appalled at this article and Mr. Rennarker and his > > >> > > > insistence on his "most important person" concept. The lack of > > proper > > >> > > > buddy system procedures, communication skills, equipment knowledge > > and > > >> > > > configuration, dive planning and the basic diving skills that is so > > >> > > > obvious in cave diving today is the direct responsibility of the > > >> > > > instructors handing out the certifications. Many people today seem > > to > > >> > > > be more interested in collecting "C" cards ASAP then learning the > > art > > >> > > > of safe cave diving. With all due respect it is my opinion that Mr. > > >> > > > Rennikers article is a prime example of what we don't want to teach > > >> > > > our students. Best regards M> Thailand's deep cave exploration at - > > >> > > > www.divefun.com/tcdp/ > > > > > > > > >
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