Garret,

I'll ignore your mealymouth whining  and cut to the chase.  One of the
biggest problems many people have with people like George, myself and now
you, is the hyperbole vs information ratio.  What they do not object to is
the transfer of useful, factual, information which may in the long haul save
their lives.

You are name calling and spewing insults and avoiding discussing the issue
here.  Let's refocus and put aside the polite introductions. The issue is
the Drager and the design flaws inherent to this particular device, which
could result in yours (or probably somebody else's, like a students) life
being shortened.  If you think this is bs then we can simply review the
handful of fatalities and accidents which have occurred over the last two
years on a case by case basis.  The point is that many people on techdiver
will eventually consider using rebreathers.  While this was probably not the
case several years ago, it certainly is now,what with the huge increase in
the numbers of people engaging in so called "technical diving".  I expect
that the numbers of people showing up on offshore dive charters with rbs to
increase significantly.

Thus, it is worthwhile to discuss the pros and cons of rebreathers in
general and the strengths and weaknesses of specific devices on this forum
for the benefit of all.  A year ago this would have drawn lots of yawns, but
times have changed.

The expense and gas logistics of offshore technical diving coupled with the
availablity of affordable rebreathers make the use of rbs an attractive and
tempting proposition. It is my opinion that the risk to reward ratio of
these things must be very carefully considered before making the jump into
the deep blue. The fact is that most rb dives are better off being done on
open circuit, but leave that issue to a later discussion.

Just to jog your memory a little bit I will take the liberty to reprint the
text of George's response to a certain Paul Davis (employee of Drager?)
which evolved out of a discussion of Henry Kendall's death on a Cis Lunar.
The subject matter was "Natural Causes".  The term "natural causes" is often
used in describing the cause of death in rebreather accidents.

People on Techdiver need to become familiar with the lexicon of rebreathers.
Terms such as "Natural Causes", "Diabetes" and "Diver Error" are a good
starting point. Perhaps you can add something to the knowledge base.

Best regards,

Bill


Kirvine Wrote:

Paul, don't tell me you guys still manufacture that piece of shit? I
guess your post below is inspired by Richard Nordstom's lie that nobody
had ever been killed using a Cis Lunar rebreather. Maybe you or Norstrom
could give me Ian Rollin's phone number so I can call him up and see how
he is doing? I bet I could find him having lunch with Generalissimo
Franco.

It seems that rebreather manufacturers have been emboldened by the
recent aquittal of Clinton on perjury charges. After all, what is
"death". Death, like "sex" is obviously subjective. Ian Rollin's death
apparently is like Clinton's sex - just a little head.

We all know that there have been deaths on the Atlantis, that there have
been injuries on the Atlantis, and that there have been accidents on the
Atlantis. How about the British Secret Service agent brain damaged in
Hawaii on an Atlantis? Just a little head?

Listen, Mr. Bullshit, the Atlantis is the single worst peice of crap I
have ever seen :

1) the mouthpiece has some wimpy valves in it that curl
up and give you a real nice hypercapnia experience when you need to
breath hard.

2) The counter lung would makes a cheap BC look bad - this
thing is as flimsy and ill thought out as it gets. It chafes all over
the cover, and is poorly contained.

3) The orifice system is so stupid
as to be criminal in my opinion. The concept of varying gas supplies way
above  what could be breathed on open circuit according to orifice and
depth is beyond the pale stupid and shows that you guys know nothing
about diving.

 4) The way this cheeseball works is extremely dangerous -
when the gas supply runs out this thing continues on to breath like a
CCR without aaddition with no warning. The loop gets depleted of oxygen
and it's lights out. It took me one dive in the pool on this to find
that out, and I never put one on again, and never looked further to see
what other horrors this atrocity contains. Maybe the others how have had
one of these could fill us all in.

I am supprised this thing is not sold in K Mart or at Seven Elevens, or
on late night TV with the vegetable steamer and the Ginshu knives.


Paul Davis wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> I often find it interesting that whenever a death is mentioned on
rebreathers
> the mud starts to fly at the Atlantis unit and I go down this path all the
> time? On what do you base this information? If you have knowledge, then
please
> share it openly on the forum. If you are working on hearsay then please
check
> you sources.
>
> Paul Davis
>
>


-----Original Message-----
From: Garrett Weinberg <scubait@ix*.ne*.co*>
To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>
Cc: kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*>; rebreather@nw*.co*
<rebreather@nw*.co*>; techdiver@aq*.co* <techdiver@aq*.co*>
Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Drager dolphin


>What do we have here - spokesmouth (Volker), then dumb and dumber? Who are
you
>going to roll out next?
>
>I didn't start this shit off and I don't have to defend the Dolphin against
>close minded fools who have already reached conclusions without facts.
Draeger's
>record speaks for itself.
>
>You want to voice your opinion about the Drager - go right ahead. It
was/is/and
>will remain a free country and nothing George says or does to try to force
>everyone into his way of thinking is going to change that fact.
>
>l will also state my experiences on the Draeger whenever and wherever I
feel
>like - neither you, nor Dan (aka the mouthpiece with no brains) nor George
are
>going to "insult" me or intimidate me. My comments and opinions on the
Dolphin
>(and the Ray) are based upon my experience not innuendo nor hearsay.
>
>I'm willing to respect that fact that you have a lot of hours on a
rebreather
>that works for your mission - why can't you do the same with other people
and
>other rebreathers and other missions.
>
>I'm willing to respect the fact that the MK 15.5 works for Kevin in his
missions
>- it just doesn't work for most recreational divers.
>
>I'm willing to respect the fact that the Lar V works for the military - it
just
>doesn't work for most recreational divers.
>
>IMHO, the Dolphin does and does it well for recreational divers -
especially if
>they are well trained.
>
>You seem to be willing to accept the fact that the world has Chevy's,
Fords,
>Toyotas, etc. and people make buying decisions based upon need and
economics.
>Why, when we enter the world of scuba diving are we forced to do it your
way or
>be labeled strokes. Why the fuck are you unwilling to accept the fact that
>rebreathers are also purchased on the basis of need and economics. Only you
want
>to force people into the single alternative that you believe in - I thought
>there was a government that collapsed a few years ago because it was bassed
on
>"no freedom of choice".
>
>And, last and truly last, it seems to me that the whining and falsehood
>manufacturer was George.
>
>If you feel like making up some other falsehoods, go ahead. Neither you nor
>George not any of your syncophants have been in the water with me. Thus, I
>accept the comments from George of me being a stroke as just another series
of
>bullshit statements from the mouth that roared.
>
>
>Bill Mee wrote:
>
>> Garrett,
>>
>> More to the point.  You seem to be quite proud of your experience with
the
>> Drager, which as we all know is an SCR. I am sure that you are aware that
>> the Drager ranks right up there with the Inspiration in the deaths and
>> serious injury department.  Perhaps, rather than whining about George,
you
>> could explain to us why this is?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Garrett Weinberg <scubait@ix*.ne*.co*>
>> To: kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
>> Cc: rebreather@nw*.co* <rebreather@nw*.co*>;
>> techdiver@aq*.co* <techdiver@aq*.co*>; wwm@sa*.ne*
>> <wwm@sa*.ne*>
>> Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 2:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fw: Drager dolphin
>>
>> >George:
>> >
>> >The funny thing is that I placed an order with Halycon about two hours
ago
>> for two Pony
>> >Mount Systems (Item Number HAL-ACC-PS) for one of my custoemrs. The
funny
>> thing is that
>> >the order was accepted and I was not purchasing it as a retail customer
but
>> as a dealer.
>> >
>> >So we know that you lie.
>> >
>> >Perhaps you also lie about drugs or maybe you did so much that drug
>> flashbacks are an
>> >accepted part of your life.
>> >
>> >I can't think of any other reason for the simple fact that I am a
Halycon
>> dealer cannot
>> >penetrate your thick skull.
>> >
>> >Again, you lie.
>> >
>> >Smoke cigarettes constantly? Not in the last twelve months.
>> >
>> >Again, you lie.
>> >
>> >Enough of your bullshit. You are a bully and the only way you can win
>> arguments is
>> >through lies and falsehoods and brow beating. I'm tired of you and tired
of
>> wasting my
>> >time dealing with an idiot like you.
>> >
>> >Here are the my final comments on this thread:
>> >
>> >(1) I am a Halycon dealer - unless RMC posts something to the contrary.
>> >(2) I stated that all rebreathers are designed for a specific mission.
Does
>> anyone
>> >seriously disagree with this comment?
>> >(3) George Irvine lies.
>> >(4) I have never dove a Halycon rebreather. I have never stated that I
dove
>> a Halycon
>> >rebreather.
>> >(5) I pay for my own gear.
>> >(6) Dan Volker can stop hiding in the woods. His cur dog George has more
>> guts than Dan.
>> >I didn't say that his cur is smarter or more honest - just has more
guts.
>> >
>> >Good night gracie and make certain that the door don't hit you on your
ass
>> on the way
>> >out.
>> >
>> >Katherine Irvine wrote:
>> >
>> >> Garret, the fact is YOU ARE NOT a Halcyon dealer. The fact is I do not
>> >> use drugs of any kind, and have not for decades.
>> >>
>> >> You , on the other hand, are in fact a broke dick nothing, who smokes
>> >> cigarettes constantly to the point where your rotting teeth are
stained
>> >> the color of your asshole, and your foul breath is enough to gag a
>> >> magot.
>> >>
>> >> You are a pathetic excuse for a cadaver, let alone a human being, you
>> >> are a two bit dive instructor who is constantly trying to schnorr gear
>> >> and deals from anyone, and it is a tribute to Draeger that they have
you
>> >> "on board". This should serve as an advertisement to anyone who looks
>> >> that this is what they DO NOT WANT.
>> >>
>> >> You are a power of the worst example in our sport, and a well-known
>> >> stroke. By the way, yuo must have me confused with Tom Mouth's son.
>> >>
>> >> Garrett Weinberg wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > George:
>> >> >
>> >> > Engage your brain (or are you suffering from a cocaine flashback
that
>> temporarily
>> >> > disengaged your cognitive powers) and get your facts straight before
>> you - like
>> >> > Dan Volker - run your mouth off.
>> >> >
>> >> > (1) It was inevitable that you would spew forth with your comments
>> after Dan got a
>> >> > spanking. It was never a question of "if" but rather a question of
>> "when".
>> >> >
>> >> > (2) I am a Halycon dealer. You may not be aware of it, but Halycon
>> sells products
>> >> > other than rebreathers. If you got a problem with me being a Halycon
>> dealer, I
>> >> > suggest that you speak to RMC. I sell Halycon gear and I do so as an
>> authorized
>> >> > dealer and under the full terms and conditions of my dealer
agreement
>> with
>> >> > Halycon..
>> >> >
>> >> > So, your statement that I am not a Halycon dealer is a lie. Plain
and
>> simple - a
>> >> > lie. Are you willing to admit that you "misspoke" on this one or do
you
>> want to
>> >> > get my Halycon dealership revoked so that the next time you post
about
>> me not
>> >> > being a Halycon dealer it will be true?
>> >> >
>> >> > (3) I never said that I dive a Halycon rebreather. I never said
>> anything about the
>> >> > Halycon rebreather. Unlike Dan, I don't knock a product that I have
no
>> experience
>> >> > on. If you can find a statement in my message that hints or suggests
>> that I have
>> >> > dove a Halycon rebreather,  please do so.
>> >> >
>> >> > Are you willing to admit that you "stretched" the truth yet again on
>> this point.
>> >> > Golly gee George, caught in a second lie - and in one e-mail.
>> >> >
>> >> > (4) I said that rebreathers should be mission specific. Actually,
the
>> exact words
>> >> > that I used were:
>> >> >
>> >> > "All rebreathers are designed for a specific purpose. Figure out
>> precisely  where
>> >> > and why you want to use rebreathers and then post the question
again."
>> >> >
>> >> > Please be so kind as to tell me what is incorrect in that statement.
I
>> don't think
>> >> > that any rebreather designer/manufacturer - including RMC - would
>> disagree with
>> >> > the statement.
>> >> >
>> >> > (5) I own an dive a Drager rebreather. Whether you like the unit or
>> not - and
>> >> > frankly I don't give a rats shit about you misleading statements (I
>> would say lies
>> >> > but everyone knows that you never ever lie), but I do have some
>> knowledge and
>> >> > experience on the Drager. You may not like the unit, the unit may
not
>> meet your
>> >> > needs, you may not like me - none of which really matters - but that
>> doesn't
>> >> > change the fact that for many people, it is a affordable, safe,
>> pleasurable
>> >> > recreational rebreather
>> >> >
>> >> > (6) Why won't Dan tell this group what his experience level is on
the
>> Halycon
>> >> > rebreather. It appears that he couldn't respond about his experience
on
>> the
>> >> > Halycon rebreather cause he has none or very little so he let loose
the
>> >> > foaming-at-the-mouth-ankle-nipping-Ivrine-dog to come to his
defense.
>> >> >
>> >> > (7) Once again, the only opinion that counts in this world is the
>> glorious word of
>> >> > truth from the master himself. Anyone who disagrees is either farm
>> animal stupid
>> >> > or a "broke dick instructor".
>> >> >
>> >> > (8) If I have foul breath, it obviously comes from inadvertently
>> breathing the
>> >> > shit the you spew forth on a regular and consistent basis.
>> >> >
>> >> > George:
>> >> >
>> >> > Tell me the time and date in which to meet at 34th street and Herald
>> Square. I'm
>> >> > sure that Macy's will donate window space while you kiss my ass. Or,
is
>> your
>> >> > promise of kissing ass in Macy's window if proven incorrect yet
another
>> lie told
>> >> > by the master?
>> >> >
>> >> > And please, tell you alter ego MrClark96 (or what-ever fake e-mail
name
>> that you
>> >> > lurk under)  not to bother sending me an e-mail threatening to come
to
>> Seattle to
>> >> > kill me. The last time he did this, I offered to pay for his ticket
so
>> he could
>> >> > come to Seattle and kick my but somehow he never showed up.
>> >> >
>> >> > Katherine Irvine wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Weinberg - you have no information of any value to anyone on this
>> >> > > planet. You are not a Halcyon dealer, you do not have a Halcyon,
you
>> >> > > have no buisness discussing it. You have no buinsess discussing
>> anything
>> >> > > or anyone - you have zero knowledge or experience on which to base
>> any
>> >> > > of your bullshit. You are a broke dick dive instructor with
rotting
>> >> > > teeth and foul breath who does more to damage this sport and its
>> image
>> >> > > than most. You are a disgusting disgrace that noboyd woould want
>> >> > > representing their product, and the very last in the case of
Halcyon.
>> >> > > Your arrogance is clearly due to the fact that you feel safe over
on
>> the
>> >> > > rb list with the rest of the fakers and bullshitters. In the real
>> world,
>> >> > > you don't cut it, and neither do any of them so far to date.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > > From: Garrett Weinberg <scubait@ix*.ne*.co*>
>> >> > > > To: rebreather@nw*.co* <rebreather@nw*.co*>
>> >> > > > Cc: Manolito Lopez <manolito@mo*.co*>
>> >> > > > Date: Saturday, August 07, 1999 6:09 PM
>> >> > > > Subject: Re: Drager dolphin
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > >There is only one piece of advice that comes to mind when
reading
>> any
>> >> > > > >statement that comes from Dan Volker - "Don't waste our time"
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >Dan conveniently forget to tell you that the company that he
works
>> for
>> >> > > > >manufactureres and sells the Halycon. Not exactly a piece of
>> unbiased
>> >> > > > >information.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >Thus, to keep all things above board, I should tell you that:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >(a) I teach the Draeger Atlantis/Dolphin/Ray
>> >> > > > >(b) I am a Draeger dealer
>> >> > > > >(c) I am also a Halycon dealer
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >Having said all of that.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >All rebreathers are designed for a specific purpose. Figure out
>> precisely
>> >> > > > >where and why you want to use rebreathers and then post the
>> question again.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >Maybe, with a better understanding of what you want to do we
can
>> give you
>> >> > > > more
>> >> > > > >meaningful insights rather than the standard Volker dribble.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >Dan Volker wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >> There's only one piece of advice that comes to mind--you've
>> probably
>> >> > > > heard
>> >> > > > >> it on TV...."Just Say No"...to the Drager.
>> >> > > > >> Buying an inexpensive death trap is no bargain.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> Look into  the Halcyon II .
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> Regards,
>> >> > > > >> Dan Volker
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> At 01:04 AM 8/8/99 +0800, Manolito Lopez wrote:
>> >> > > > >> >Hi guys, I'm very new to the list, I'm not even a rebreather
>> diver,
>> >> > > > >> >however I am planning to get a one this month.  A lot of
people
>> in my
>> >> > > > >> >area has been buying the Drager dolphin, I wanted to know
from
>> you the
>> >> > > > >> >experts what you think of it.  Presently I'm doing my
technical
>> nitrox
>> >> > > > >> >class, I'm planning on getting into trimix a few months from
>> now.  I
>> >> > > > >> >have been diving since 1991 and have 350 dives.  I  live and
>> dive in the
>> >> > > > >> >Philippines.  My only worry is that the dolphin is only
limited
>> to
>> >> > > > >> >recreational limits.  And the other units I know of like the
>> halcyon and
>> >> > > > >> >cis-lunar are way too expensive.  I hope you guys could help
me
>> here.  I
>> >> > > > >> >don't want to make  a mistake by buying the wrong toy.
Thanks
>> in
>> >> > > > >> >advance.
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> >manolito
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> Dan Volker
>> >> > > > >> SOUTH FLORIDA DIVE JOURNAL
>> >> > > > >> "The Internet magazine for Underwater Photography and mpeg
>> Video"
>> >> > > > >> http://www.sfdj.com
>> >> > > > >>  561-547-9685
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >
>> >
>
>

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