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This message has been automatically forwarded to you Some things we make ourselves, but actually most stuff we either ask others to make or exists in a form that we can use "off the shelf", or with only a little modification. This is not the problem. The problem is that certain elements continue insist on fighting that process and produce faulty gear to sell to unuspecting buyers, using our hard work as as starting point, and syphoning our self-supporting funds away form our open-to-everyone project. Real class. All anyone has to do is look at the terrible time Stone had with his copied scooters as well as his very expensive metal scooters , or ask any of the would-be coopiers of my scooters what dives they have been able to do with them, or if they ever actually work, to find out that the real thing is well worth going to the pros to procure. In addition, who is going to warrant these fake pieces of gear, some broke redneck? Some machine shop that made parts? Some mentally retarded maintenance man who lives in a trailer at Ginnie Springs? Some clerk out of a hardware store in Leesburg , Florida? Ask anyone who was involved in "Wakulla 2" about the scooter fiasco, or just look at their web site. They never got it right, and I have the original Stone drawings that date from December 1996 to show how much time they put into it. With Stone's "engineering" and King's money, and two solid years of having several people ( granted, they were extemely stupid people) try to build these, they could not pull it off. They had help from anyone and everyone who thought they knew more about this than I do. Here is the fact in diving and cave diving : one group has always done it successfully, everyone else has been sitintg around crowing about nothing. We have had the gear for years, you are now just hearing about it. My original dive partner, Lamar English of "English Engineering" light fame bought the nicad batteries that are in my cave light which is nine years old, and I made the scooter he rode until he quit diving, and which is now owned by another WKPP member. Gavin qave me the spec to build the scooter, he gave English the spec to build the light. I worked it out until we had one that could be reproduced identically for evey team member, and we sell those and other items to support the project. vpg wrote: > > I posted a suggestion on here to the effect that WKPP should run a DIR > approval scheme to allow other manufacturers to produce DIR kit, WKPP > approved kit in return for a royalty or license fee. A manufacturer would > submit his product for approval by the WKPP. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*] > > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:19 AM > > To: Jim Cobb; Michel Therrien; Pagefix@ao*.co*; cavers; Tech Diver > > Subject: The Real Issue of the "Re: Pictures" > > > > > > The real issue here continues to be the fact that the WKPP members do > > the work, the design and development, do the diving, share the > > information and the actual stuff, and then get screwed by those who want > > to take that and profit from it with no regard for the fact that WKPP > > stuff is sold to benefit the ongoing project. > > > > This is obviously a trend that was begun by one Dr. Bill Stone and his > > "usdct" who outright stole the WKPP scooter design, (albeit the wrong > > one an they could not make it work) and who tried repreatedly to claim > > the WKPP results in magazine articles ,etc. > > > > The "community" is obviusly emboldened by Stone's actions, and by the > > antics of the pathetic group of trailer rats he has gathered around him > > to do this, and has now started becoming agressive in this obvious > > attempt to injure and insult the WKPP. > > > > They just do not yet understand what they are doing here. > > > > > > kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote: > > > > > > Jim, the web site is Arnold's. He owns AUL. > > > > > > Jim Cobb wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh for Christs Sake, lets get real here. The reason that the > > ratster has > > > > his panties in a wad is the fact that this web site promotes > > AUL products > > > > and not his gear. All this huff-and-puffery is just a > > smokescreen and a > > > > bunch of baby-like boo-hooing that, frankly, does not reflect well on > > > > Miller or his products. > > > > > > > > You are in the real world now, Miller, you need to start acting like a > > > > business professional and not a redneck hillbilly > > pickemuptruck cowboy. > > > > You need to take your marketing medicine like a man and quit > > belaboring > > > > the list with your whining. > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > Sender: Michel Therrien Date: 3/24/99 9:29 AM > > > > > > > > >Dear Pagefix, (who is Pagefix?) > > > > > > > > > >I am not Barry's friend, nor a WKPP diver or affiliate. I > > will admit that > > > > >I don't always like the attitude of some WKPP leaders. > > > > > > > > > >This said, the reason why I wrote the message is not to > > defend Barry... it > > > > >is a question of principle. I have no tolerance for > > pirating, steeling and > > > > >unethical behavior such as taking someones material without > > his permission. > > > > > I propably have this attitude because I worked in the > > software industry (I > > > > >don't know). > > > > > > > > > >Is there a reason why you stay anonymous? This is another > > thing I have > > > > >problem with... I guess. > > > > > > > > > >Please note that the issue for me is not legal... it is > > ethical. While the > > > > >law may allow to copy someone's material for educative > > purposes, I don't > > > > >think this is honest. > > > > > > > > > >Is it so hard to ask permission to use material PRIOR to > > using it? I was > > > > >flattered that the NSS-CDS recently asked me to use some of > > my pictures. > > > > >On the other hand, I would have been really pissed off if I > > saw my pictures > > > > >without any prior discussion about their use. > > > > > > > > > >Michel Therrien > > > > >Montreal, Canada > > > > > > > > > >PS: I know it is unethical to copy private messages in > > public forums, but I > > > > >started public and I think your answer may help the rest of > > the crowd to > > > > >understand your position. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 09:04 AM 3/24/99 EST, you wrote: > > > > >>Michel the video was given to one of our sponsors and we > > took some clips of > > > > >>it. The law states that you can us this type of material > > as long as you are > > > > >>not selling it to make a profit. We e-mailed Barry with an > > apology for the > > > > >>mistake and fixed the problem. He didn't post that part on > > you cavers list > > > > >>just the other parts that he wanted you to see. The fact > > of the matter is we > > > > >>would have agreed with what he asked but after the flaming > > he gave us we took > > > > >>a defensive posture. What is wrong with him has he no respect for > > > > >anything or > > > > >>one? I am sorry if you want to punish AUL for Barry > > Millers Flaming and Lies > > > > >>to us. But if you feel like the only way to help Barry is > > kicking another > > > > >>company so be it. > > > > >>Most people don't use the language that Barry has used to a > > dog but if he > > > > >>wants to talk like that it a free country and God bless him. > > > > >>Please except our apologies for any misunderstanding and > > thanks for you > > > > >input. > > > > >>pagefix@ao* > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >-- > > > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > `techdiver@aq*.co*'. > > > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > `techdiver-request@aq*.co*'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html > > > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aq*.co*'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aq*.co*'. > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aq*.co*'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aq*.co*'. ___________________________________________________________ This message was dispatched to the Internet at 27/03/99 12:01
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