All those stamens are very true, however the market exists, is thriving, and
somebody will fill the need, it's the American way. I agree it's a totally
different business, but whats the point, a large percentage of the shops are
overpriced and offer terrible service these shop are many times protected by
the scuba manufacture's (Brownies does NOT happen to be one of these) and
that system stinks. I really believe the scuba industry  should be treated
the same as any other business. It's true for some amount of time it may
very well suffer, but the shops that should be around that offer good
service and price will survive and prosper.  Of course they'll be no more
99. dollar scuba class's, no more free air, and many other things but so
what overall it will be good. By artificially inflating the price you damage
the very shops that you wish to help. The full service work hard at his
business shop shouldn't fear competition. The guys that scream and fear the
most are the guys sitting on their butts, crying about everything that
doesn't go their way. I can't in good conscience continue to tie up all this
bandwidth (yea I know good riddance) for stuff this forum is not intended
for. I'm more than willing to continue this conversation privately. Yes my
opinions do get me in hot water, but I'm a big boy and can take the heat,

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert M. Carmichael <brownies@ne*.ne*>
To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jody Everett
<jodyev@in*.co*>; 'Jesse Armantrout' <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
'Jim Cobb' <cobber@ci*.co*>; 'Miller, Barry' <rat@ne*.co*>;
'Michel Therrien' <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
<Pagefix@ao*.co*>
Cc: 'cavers' <cavers@cavers.com>; 'Tech Diver' <techdiver@aq*.co*>
Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: None


>Bill,
>
>You let out quality and customer service in your explanation of success at
>business. The one thing that mail-order cannot offer is hands on customer
>service such as repair's or gas fills. That is what makes good dealer's
>valuable to the customer. My other sport is cycling. Mail order is very
>aggressive in the biking industry, but there is nothing like a good bike
>shop  with a great mechanic who happens to be a CAD2 rider or such when it
>comes time to buy.
>
>Where do you suppose we would fill our tanks if mail-order, nickel rocket,
>contribute nothing "businesses" where to take over?
>
>I am sure you share these same concerns given your "full service" dive shop
>status.
>
>RMC
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: William Allen [mailto:william@ca*.co*]
>Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:24 AM
>To: Jody Everett; 'Jesse Armantrout'; 'Jim Cobb'; 'Miller, Barry';
>'Michel Therrien'; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>Cc: 'cavers'; 'Tech Diver'
>Subject: Re: None
>
>
>Perhaps since you seem to be so conected, why not call George yourself and
>ask him. I'll be talking to him a little later. Now for the chessy web
site,
>I'll admit it's inexpensive, i really get tired of this but here goes
>business 101 again. You make money by 1. buying as cheaply as you can. 2.
>you make money by keeping your overhead down. 3 take all terms and
discounts
>.. by following steps one through three you can sell this stuff cheaper
>stock
>more and hopefully sell more. I care little about image, it's too damn
>expensive. Or are you one of the people who walk in their local shop and
>gladly pay their full retail price because they have such a classy image?
>Actually most of my vendors find me a little agresive, head up their ass
>well i suppose if it would get me a better price. But usually i find buying
>in some quantinty and paying well is good enough for most of the vendors.
By
>the way what business are you in?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jody Everett <jodyev@in*.co*>
>To: 'William Allen' <william@ca*.co*>; 'Jesse Armantrout'
><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; 'Jim Cobb' <cobber@ci*.co*>;
'Miller,
>Barry' <rat@ne*.co*>; 'Michel Therrien' <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>;
>Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>Cc: 'cavers' <cavers@cavers.com>; 'Tech Diver' <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 1:06 AM
>Subject: None
>
>
>>So how long did you spend on the phone last Friday talking with George or
>>Barry before you listed those fake gavin scooters for sale on the web
page?
>>You guys will do anything for a buck and you prove it time and time again.
>>You guys can claim your just stirring the pot all you want.  You in
>>particular have a clear history of po$t to the$e list that anyone with a
>>brain $hould know exac tly what motivate$ mo$t of your activity here.  The
>>only secret that you need to let anyone in on is just exactly how far
>you're
>>willing to shove your head up your vendors asses to get a better
pricepoint
>>and make another buck.
>>
>>You guys might want to at least consider setting up a legitimate presence
>on
>>the internet and drop the aol web address.  That's a pretty cheesy
internet
>>presence.  Weren't you the one offering the marketing advice earlier?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: William Allen [mailto:william@ca*.co*]
>>Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 8:15 PM
>>To: Jody Everett; 'Jesse Armantrout'; 'Jim Cobb'; 'Miller, Barry'; 'Michel
>>Therrien'; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>Cc: 'cavers'; 'Tech Diver'
>>Subject: Re: Pictures
>>
>>I'll let you in on a secret (not) the company is Northeast Scuba Supply
and
>>the reason you hear Cobb support us and the "real" players not hanging us
>up
>>by the short hairs is we sell damn near any cave diving, gas mixing and
>tech
>>diving item you could need. We service it, repair it, ship it all over the
>>world (through John's scuba) and the nice thing is we do it as
>inexpensively
>>as we are allowed by our suppliers, no bullshit, no stroke advice. We
don't
>>knock other good products (such as Barry's lights) and I'll caution you
the
>>same as I've cautioned others this is the web. Take what you read with a
>>grain of salt. We do business and privately communicate with many of the
>>very people we have been poking fun at all day, a rather slow day at the
>>salt mines. It may suprise you to know we sell many of the products these
>>guys use (and lots of it). We have had many private communications with
>>George, I think Barry even emailed me twice today in a very positive way.
I
>>always get a kick out of people who read this stuff and assume they have a
>>clue. No one in their right mind is going to place on a world wide list
any
>>information that they consider private or secret or could hurt them in any
>>way. If you have any more questions about northeast scuba email me and
I'll
>>send you the web page, privately as it should be. Bill
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jody Everett <jodyev@in*.co*>
>>To: 'William Allen' <william@ca*.co*>; 'Jesse Armantrout'
>><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; 'Jim Cobb' <cobber@ci*.co*>;
>'Miller,
>>Barry' <rat@ne*.co*>; 'Michel Therrien' <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>;
>>Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>Cc: 'cavers' <cavers@cavers.com>; 'Tech Diver' <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:00 PM
>>Subject: RE: Pictures
>>
>>
>>>Why is it that anyone who actively promotes this place called NESupply(W.
>>>Allen and Jim"the Gavin scooters can be found here" Cobb) seem to be
>should
>>>such staunch supporters of AUL.
>>>
>>>Coincidence...?  Maybe...Maybe not.
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: William Allen [mailto:william@ca*.co*]
>>>Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 4:19 PM
>>>To: Jesse Armantrout; Jim Cobb; Miller, Barry; Michel Therrien;
>>>Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>>Cc: cavers; Tech Diver
>>>Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>
>>>Ah a lucid argument, tough guy, me, naw. Just a person with a different
>>>opinion than yours. So let me get this straight the first light was
>>improved
>>>by AUL's version, than Barry's came out, another improvement. So now what
>>>are the odds that Barry's light are the end of the improvements?
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>>To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb
><cobber@ci*.co*>;
>>>Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>>Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>>Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 4:14 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>
>>>
>>>>Shattering...interesting choice of words.  That, tough guy, was the
>>problem
>>>>with the AUL's...the bottom fell off.  The shitty connector was minor.
>>>>
>>>>Peir (sic) pressure?  Yeah, right.  I choose the gear I am going to do
>>cave
>>>>exploration at 300 feet deep and a mile and a half back based on peer
>>>>pressure.
>>>>
>>>>An area you are very familiar with?  How?  How many of the gas divers
>have
>>>>you dove with?
>>>>
>>>>I hope your lights are better than your logic.
>>>>
>>>>Trout
>>>>
>>>>----------
>>>>> From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>>>>> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
>>>><cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel
>>Therrien
>>>><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>>>> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>>> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 3:03 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean the banana plug? earth shattering. So there was a need and
>>Barry
>>>>> filled it, intro to business 101. Unless we're talking about a
>different
>>>>> Barry I doubt he's sorry he started making lights as a matter of fact
I
>>>>> think one of the reasons Barry is so "vocal" about his light is he's
>>>>proud
>>>>> of his product and company. As far as all the WKPP using them ( an
area
>>>>I'm
>>>>> very familiar with) I would call it peir pressure. Now if it was only
a
>>>>wkpp
>>>>> product why the massive marketing attempt and rather blatant attempt
at
>>>>> making your product better by running down everyone else's. When I
>bring
>>>>my
>>>>> lights out I'll send one to Barry to look at and evaluate before we
>>start
>>>>> marketing them. As I'm proud of my product and I'm sure Barry would
>like
>>>>to
>>>>> be one of the first to see them.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>>>> To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb
>>>><cobber@ci*.co*>;
>>>>> Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>>>> <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>>>> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 3:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >Let me rephrase that...
>>>>> >
>>>>> >AUL lights incorporated features that Barry Miller lights were using
a
>>>>few
>>>>> >weeks after Barry began selling lights.  Better?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >The fact is, the only reason Barry began selling lights, something I
>am
>>>>> >sure he regrets, is because nobody was making a light the way many
>>>>members
>>>>> >of the WKPP wanted their lights made which was, by the way, the way
>>>>Gavin
>>>>> >made them.  Now, I believe all the lights being used by WKPP gas
>divers
>>>>are
>>>>> >either Gavin lights or Miller lights with the exception of George's
>one
>>>>> >NiCad.  This too is contrary to what the web page would have you
>>>>believe.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Trout
>>>>> >
>>>>> >----------
>>>>> >> From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>>>>> >> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
>>>>> ><cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel
>>>>Therrien
>>>>> ><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>>>> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>>> >> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 1:41 PM
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Barry's lights were copied by AUL what's this a time warp? I
believe
>>>>all
>>>>> >> these lights are basically copies of another person's light. I
>>believe
>>>>> >> barrys lights came out quite a bit after AUL's although he did make
>>>>some
>>>>> >> changes to them. Before anybody has stroke AUL did not design them
>>>>> >either.
>>>>> >> English engineering I think was the first.
>>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>>>> >> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry
>>>><rat@ne*.co*>;
>>>>> >> Michel Therrien <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>>>> >> <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>>>> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>>>> >> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 2:34 PM
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >Sorry, Jim, gotta call bullshit here.  I could care less what
>>>>language
>>>>> >> >anybody uses.  If the stuff works, I buy it.  But then, I like
>Eddie
>>>>> >Murphy
>>>>> >> >and George Carlin, too.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >Barry lights work.  And Barry is a great guy.  I am told that AUL
>>>>lights
>>>>> >> >now work fairly well since they copied Barry's lights.  The web
>>page,
>>>>> >> >however is in the wrong.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >End of story.  Let's go back to talking about hose routing or
>upside
>>>>> >down
>>>>> >> >tanks or some other stupidity.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >Trout
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >----------
>>>>> >> >> From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>>>>> >> >> To: Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>>>> >> ><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>>>> >> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver
>><techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>>> >> >> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:46 AM
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Hey, Barry, you were doing great until that last sentence. I
>don't
>>>>buy
>>>>> >> >> this "holier than though" stuff of yours, either.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> You know, generally speaking, it never ceases to amaze me how
>>>>> >> >> manufacturers or representatives come on to these public forums
>>and
>>>>> >> >> proceed to directly or indirectly piss off or alienate the very
>>>>people
>>>>> >> >> upon whom their income depends.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Like it your not you are one of these manufacturers and getting
>on
>>>>> >these
>>>>> >> >> lists with long profanity laced tirades is simply not a bright
>>>>thing
>>>>> >to
>>>>> >> >> do. For every person who supports you  there are ten or a
hundred
>>>>who
>>>>> >> >> will take their business elsewhere.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> And a common saying in Marketing is "don't get mad, get even" my
>>>>boy,
>>>>> >if
>>>>> >> >> you get my drift (wink, wink, nod, nod).
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>    Jim
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Sender: Miller, Barry  Date: 3/24/99 12:13 PM
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >Mr. Cobb,
>>>>> >> >> >   You could not be further from the truth. As a matter of
fact,
>>>>your
>>>>> >> >view
>>>>> >> >> >seems to be in the minority. The day that you do something then
>>>>have
>>>>> >> >> >someone steal it will show a change of attitude, that is the
day
>>>>you
>>>>> >do
>>>>> >> >> >something. It is very difficult to say anything without you and
>>>>your
>>>>> >> >> >friends throwing in the fact that I build equipment. I am not
>>sure
>>>>> >where
>>>>> >> >> >you get that I am doing the marketing, maybe you need to go
look
>>>>at
>>>>> >this
>>>>> >> >> >web page and tell us again who is doing the marketing. I am
>>>>speaking
>>>>> >as
>>>>> >> >an
>>>>> >> >> >individual trying to protect what is mine, while these "people"
>>>>are
>>>>> >> >using
>>>>> >> >> >my work to sell and promote their product. If one day I decide
>to
>>>>use
>>>>> >> >any
>>>>> >> >> >of my work to promote anything I do and you don't like it, then
>>>>you
>>>>> >can
>>>>> >> >> >also fuckoff.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >Barry
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >At 10:59 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Jim Cobb wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >>Oh for Christs Sake, lets get real here. The reason that the
>>>>ratster
>>>>> >> >has
>>>>> >> >> >>his panties in a wad is the fact that this web site promotes
>AUL
>>>>> >> >products
>>>>> >> >> >>and not his gear. All this huff-and-puffery is just a
>>smokescreen
>>>>> >and a
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >>bunch of baby-like boo-hooing that, frankly, does not reflect
>>>>well
>>>>> >on
>>>>> >> >> >>Miller or his products.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>You are in the real world now, Miller, you need to start
acting
>>>>like
>>>>> >a
>>>>> >> >> >>business professional and not a redneck hillbilly
pickemuptruck
>>>>> >cowboy.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >>You need to take your marketing medicine like a man and quit
>>>>> >belaboring
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >>the list with your whining.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>   Jim
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>Sender: Michel Therrien  Date: 3/24/99 9:29 AM
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Dear Pagefix, (who is Pagefix?)
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>I am not Barry's friend, nor a WKPP diver or affiliate.  I
>will
>>>>> >admit
>>>>> >> >that
>>>>> >> >> >>>I don't always like the attitude of some WKPP leaders.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>This said, the reason why I wrote the message is not to
defend
>>>>> >> >Barry... it
>>>>> >> >> >>>is a question of principle.  I have no tolerance for
pirating,
>>>>> >> >steeling and
>>>>> >> >> >>>unethical behavior such as taking someones material without
>his
>>>>> >> >permission.
>>>>> >> >> >>> I propably have this attitude because I worked in the
>software
>>>>> >> >industry (I
>>>>> >> >> >>>don't know).
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Is there a reason why you stay anonymous?  This is another
>>thing
>>>>I
>>>>> >> >have
>>>>> >> >> >>>problem with... I guess.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Please note that the issue for me is not legal... it is
>>ethical.
>>>>> >While
>>>>> >> >the
>>>>> >> >> >>>law may allow to copy someone's material for educative
>>purposes,
>>>>I
>>>>> >> >don't
>>>>> >> >> >>>think this is honest.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Is it so hard to ask permission to use material PRIOR to
using
>>>>it?
>>>>> >I
>>>>> >> >was
>>>>> >> >> >>>flattered that the NSS-CDS recently asked me to use some of
my
>>>>> >> >pictures.
>>>>> >> >> >>>On the other hand, I would have been really pissed off if I
>saw
>>>>my
>>>>> >> >pictures
>>>>> >> >> >>>without any prior discussion about their use.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Michel Therrien
>>>>> >> >> >>>Montreal, Canada
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>PS: I know it is unethical to copy private messages in public
>>>>> >forums,
>>>>> >> >but I
>>>>> >> >> >>>started public and I think your answer may help the rest of
>the
>>>>> >crowd
>>>>> >> >to
>>>>> >> >> >>>understand your position.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>At 09:04 AM 3/24/99 EST, you wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >>>>Michel the video was given to one of our sponsors and we
took
>>>>some
>>>>> >> >clips of
>>>>> >> >> >>>>it.  The law states that you can us this type of material as
>>>>long
>>>>> >as
>>>>> >> >you
>>>>> >> >> >are
>>>>> >> >> >>>>not selling it to make a profit.  We e-mailed Barry with an
>>>>> >apology
>>>>> >> >for the
>>>>> >> >> >>>>mistake and fixed the problem.  He didn't post that part on
>>you
>>>>> >> >cavers list
>>>>> >> >> >>>>just the other parts that he wanted you to see.  The fact of
>>>>the
>>>>> >> >matter
>>>>> >> >> >is we
>>>>> >> >> >>>>would have agreed with what he asked but after the flaming
he
>>>>gave
>>>>> >us
>>>>> >> >we
>>>>> >> >> >took
>>>>> >> >> >>>>a defensive posture.  What is wrong with him has he no
>respect
>>>>for
>>>>> >> >> >>>anything or
>>>>> >> >> >>>>one?  I am sorry if you want to punish AUL for Barry Millers
>>>>> >Flaming
>>>>> >> >and
>>>>> >> >> >Lies
>>>>> >> >> >>>>to us.  But if you feel like the only way to help Barry is
>>>>kicking
>>>>> >> >another
>>>>> >> >> >>>>company so be it.
>>>>> >> >> >>>>Most people don't use the language that Barry has used to a
>>dog
>>>>> >but
>>>>> >> >if he
>>>>> >> >> >>>>wants to talk like that it a free country and God bless him.
>>>>> >> >> >>>>Please except our apologies for any misunderstanding and
>>thanks
>>>>> >for
>>>>> >> >you
>>>>> >> >> >>>input.
>>>>> >> >> >>>>pagefix@ao*
>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>--
>>>>> >> >> >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>>> >> >`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>>>>> >> >> >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>>> >> >`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> >> >> Learn About Trimix at
>>>>http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> >>  Learn About Trimix at
>>>>http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> --
>>>>> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>>> >`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>>>>> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>>> >`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>>>>> >
>>
>>--
>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>
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>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aq*.co*'.
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