And what, exactly, was your opinion?

-----Original Message-----
From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
<cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
<m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Pictures


>Ah a lucid argument, tough guy, me, naw. Just a person with a different
>opinion than yours. So let me get this straight the first light was
improved
>by AUL's version, than Barry's came out, another improvement. So now what
>are the odds that Barry's light are the end of the improvements?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>;
>Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 4:14 PM
>Subject: Re: Pictures
>
>
>>Shattering...interesting choice of words.  That, tough guy, was the
problem
>>with the AUL's...the bottom fell off.  The shitty connector was minor.
>>
>>Peir (sic) pressure?  Yeah, right.  I choose the gear I am going to do
cave
>>exploration at 300 feet deep and a mile and a half back based on peer
>>pressure.
>>
>>An area you are very familiar with?  How?  How many of the gas divers have
>>you dove with?
>>
>>I hope your lights are better than your logic.
>>
>>Trout
>>
>>----------
>>> From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>>> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
>><cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel
Therrien
>><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 3:03 PM
>>>
>>> You mean the banana plug? earth shattering. So there was a need and
Barry
>>> filled it, intro to business 101. Unless we're talking about a different
>>> Barry I doubt he's sorry he started making lights as a matter of fact I
>>> think one of the reasons Barry is so "vocal" about his light is he's
>>proud
>>> of his product and company. As far as all the WKPP using them ( an area
>>I'm
>>> very familiar with) I would call it peir pressure. Now if it was only a
>>wkpp
>>> product why the massive marketing attempt and rather blatant attempt at
>>> making your product better by running down everyone else's. When I bring
>>my
>>> lights out I'll send one to Barry to look at and evaluate before we
start
>>> marketing them. As I'm proud of my product and I'm sure Barry would like
>>to
>>> be one of the first to see them.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>> To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb
>><cobber@ci*.co*>;
>>> Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>> <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 3:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>
>>>
>>> >Let me rephrase that...
>>> >
>>> >AUL lights incorporated features that Barry Miller lights were using a
>>few
>>> >weeks after Barry began selling lights.  Better?
>>> >
>>> >The fact is, the only reason Barry began selling lights, something I am
>>> >sure he regrets, is because nobody was making a light the way many
>>members
>>> >of the WKPP wanted their lights made which was, by the way, the way
>>Gavin
>>> >made them.  Now, I believe all the lights being used by WKPP gas divers
>>are
>>> >either Gavin lights or Miller lights with the exception of George's one
>>> >NiCad.  This too is contrary to what the web page would have you
>>believe.
>>> >
>>> >Trout
>>> >
>>> >----------
>>> >> From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>>> >> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
>>> ><cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel
>>Therrien
>>> ><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> >> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 1:41 PM
>>> >>
>>> >> Barry's lights were copied by AUL what's this a time warp? I believe
>>all
>>> >> these lights are basically copies of another person's light. I
believe
>>> >> barrys lights came out quite a bit after AUL's although he did make
>>some
>>> >> changes to them. Before anybody has stroke AUL did not design them
>>> >either.
>>> >> English engineering I think was the first.
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>> >> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry
>><rat@ne*.co*>;
>>> >> Michel Therrien <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> >> <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> >> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 2:34 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >Sorry, Jim, gotta call bullshit here.  I could care less what
>>language
>>> >> >anybody uses.  If the stuff works, I buy it.  But then, I like Eddie
>>> >Murphy
>>> >> >and George Carlin, too.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Barry lights work.  And Barry is a great guy.  I am told that AUL
>>lights
>>> >> >now work fairly well since they copied Barry's lights.  The web
page,
>>> >> >however is in the wrong.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >End of story.  Let's go back to talking about hose routing or upside
>>> >down
>>> >> >tanks or some other stupidity.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Trout
>>> >> >
>>> >> >----------
>>> >> >> From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>>> >> >> To: Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>> >> ><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> >> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver
<techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> >> >> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:46 AM
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Hey, Barry, you were doing great until that last sentence. I don't
>>buy
>>> >> >> this "holier than though" stuff of yours, either.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> You know, generally speaking, it never ceases to amaze me how
>>> >> >> manufacturers or representatives come on to these public forums
and
>>> >> >> proceed to directly or indirectly piss off or alienate the very
>>people
>>> >> >> upon whom their income depends.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Like it your not you are one of these manufacturers and getting on
>>> >these
>>> >> >> lists with long profanity laced tirades is simply not a bright
>>thing
>>> >to
>>> >> >> do. For every person who supports you  there are ten or a hundred
>>who
>>> >> >> will take their business elsewhere.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> And a common saying in Marketing is "don't get mad, get even" my
>>boy,
>>> >if
>>> >> >> you get my drift (wink, wink, nod, nod).
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>    Jim
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Sender: Miller, Barry  Date: 3/24/99 12:13 PM
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >Mr. Cobb,
>>> >> >> >   You could not be further from the truth. As a matter of fact,
>>your
>>> >> >view
>>> >> >> >seems to be in the minority. The day that you do something then
>>have
>>> >> >> >someone steal it will show a change of attitude, that is the day
>>you
>>> >do
>>> >> >> >something. It is very difficult to say anything without you and
>>your
>>> >> >> >friends throwing in the fact that I build equipment. I am not
sure
>>> >where
>>> >> >> >you get that I am doing the marketing, maybe you need to go look
>>at
>>> >this
>>> >> >> >web page and tell us again who is doing the marketing. I am
>>speaking
>>> >as
>>> >> >an
>>> >> >> >individual trying to protect what is mine, while these "people"
>>are
>>> >> >using
>>> >> >> >my work to sell and promote their product. If one day I decide to
>>use
>>> >> >any
>>> >> >> >of my work to promote anything I do and you don't like it, then
>>you
>>> >can
>>> >> >> >also fuckoff.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >Barry
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >At 10:59 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Jim Cobb wrote:
>>> >> >> >>Oh for Christs Sake, lets get real here. The reason that the
>>ratster
>>> >> >has
>>> >> >> >>his panties in a wad is the fact that this web site promotes AUL
>>> >> >products
>>> >> >> >>and not his gear. All this huff-and-puffery is just a
smokescreen
>>> >and a
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >>bunch of baby-like boo-hooing that, frankly, does not reflect
>>well
>>> >on
>>> >> >> >>Miller or his products.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>You are in the real world now, Miller, you need to start acting
>>like
>>> >a
>>> >> >> >>business professional and not a redneck hillbilly pickemuptruck
>>> >cowboy.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >>You need to take your marketing medicine like a man and quit
>>> >belaboring
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >>the list with your whining.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>   Jim
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>Sender: Michel Therrien  Date: 3/24/99 9:29 AM
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>>Dear Pagefix, (who is Pagefix?)
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>I am not Barry's friend, nor a WKPP diver or affiliate.  I will
>>> >admit
>>> >> >that
>>> >> >> >>>I don't always like the attitude of some WKPP leaders.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>This said, the reason why I wrote the message is not to defend
>>> >> >Barry... it
>>> >> >> >>>is a question of principle.  I have no tolerance for pirating,
>>> >> >steeling and
>>> >> >> >>>unethical behavior such as taking someones material without his
>>> >> >permission.
>>> >> >> >>> I propably have this attitude because I worked in the software
>>> >> >industry (I
>>> >> >> >>>don't know).
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Is there a reason why you stay anonymous?  This is another
thing
>>I
>>> >> >have
>>> >> >> >>>problem with... I guess.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Please note that the issue for me is not legal... it is
ethical.
>>> >While
>>> >> >the
>>> >> >> >>>law may allow to copy someone's material for educative
purposes,
>>I
>>> >> >don't
>>> >> >> >>>think this is honest.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Is it so hard to ask permission to use material PRIOR to using
>>it?
>>> >I
>>> >> >was
>>> >> >> >>>flattered that the NSS-CDS recently asked me to use some of my
>>> >> >pictures.
>>> >> >> >>>On the other hand, I would have been really pissed off if I saw
>>my
>>> >> >pictures
>>> >> >> >>>without any prior discussion about their use.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Michel Therrien
>>> >> >> >>>Montreal, Canada
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>PS: I know it is unethical to copy private messages in public
>>> >forums,
>>> >> >but I
>>> >> >> >>>started public and I think your answer may help the rest of the
>>> >crowd
>>> >> >to
>>> >> >> >>>understand your position.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>At 09:04 AM 3/24/99 EST, you wrote:
>>> >> >> >>>>Michel the video was given to one of our sponsors and we took
>>some
>>> >> >clips of
>>> >> >> >>>>it.  The law states that you can us this type of material as
>>long
>>> >as
>>> >> >you
>>> >> >> >are
>>> >> >> >>>>not selling it to make a profit.  We e-mailed Barry with an
>>> >apology
>>> >> >for the
>>> >> >> >>>>mistake and fixed the problem.  He didn't post that part on
you
>>> >> >cavers list
>>> >> >> >>>>just the other parts that he wanted you to see.  The fact of
>>the
>>> >> >matter
>>> >> >> >is we
>>> >> >> >>>>would have agreed with what he asked but after the flaming he
>>gave
>>> >us
>>> >> >we
>>> >> >> >took
>>> >> >> >>>>a defensive posture.  What is wrong with him has he no respect
>>for
>>> >> >> >>>anything or
>>> >> >> >>>>one?  I am sorry if you want to punish AUL for Barry Millers
>>> >Flaming
>>> >> >and
>>> >> >> >Lies
>>> >> >> >>>>to us.  But if you feel like the only way to help Barry is
>>kicking
>>> >> >another
>>> >> >> >>>>company so be it.
>>> >> >> >>>>Most people don't use the language that Barry has used to a
dog
>>> >but
>>> >> >if he
>>> >> >> >>>>wants to talk like that it a free country and God bless him.
>>> >> >> >>>>Please except our apologies for any misunderstanding and
thanks
>>> >for
>>> >> >you
>>> >> >> >>>input.
>>> >> >> >>>>pagefix@ao*
>>> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >>>--
>>> >> >> >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>> >> >`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>>> >> >> >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>> >> >`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>  Learn About Trimix at
>>http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>> >`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
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>>> >`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
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>

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