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From: "Tom Mercier" <merciert@ti*.co*>
To: "Ken Sallot" <kens@ac*.ne*>
Cc: <cavers@cavers.com>
Subject: Re: in all seriousness
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:26:56 -0500
Ken, yes it is my opinion that diabetics who know their limitations and
stay within them can participate in technical diving. I have no opinion on
epileptics in technical diving but my understanding is that the seizures
can be controled with medication...how these medications react under
pressure I do not know ...they may be perfectly safe or not.  I personally
would be very hesitant about diving with anyone who takes
antidepressives...I have seen too many people simply blackout underwater
when taking them....more studies would need to be done to determine their
safety in the technical environment.   The list of circumstances under
which  a person should not engage in overhead diving is exhaustive...and I
am not here to trash our sport, but often times it is not necessarly a
controlled physical limitiation... It is more often that in which the diver
simply overextends his/her limitations... mental or physical.   There are
many people who say no one should dive greater than a 100' or 132'  or dive
more than 132' from the nearest exit.  Technology has allowed people to
push the limits into unexplored worlds...and that word people is all
inclusive...it doesnt necessarly rule out those who are less than super
heroes...but you can pick your own dive buddies.

Tom 

----------
> From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*>
> To: Tom Mercier <merciert@ti*.co*>
> Cc: cavers@cavers.com
> Subject: Re: in all seriousness
> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 7:06 AM
> 
> Tom, you talk about diabetic comas and death but then say it's ok for 
> diabetics to engage in technical diving. What's up with that shit? Do 
> you think epileptics should engage in overhead decompression diving 
> too? How about people who take prozaic? Under what circumstances do 
> you think it would be safer for someone NOT to engage in overhead 
> diving?
> 
> 
> > From:          "Tom Mercier" <merciert@ti*.co*>
> > To:            <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> > Cc:            <cavers@cavers.com>, <kens@ac*.ne*>
> > Subject:       Re: in all seriousness
> > Date:          Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:52:48 -0500
> 
> > George,  First, I am not a diabetic. Secondly, I am not like your
mother (
> > I assume so, as I don't know the woman)... however you know or imagine
her
> > to be. Third, Your party is Your party.  You can invite or exclude
whoever
> > you want from your group for whatever reason you want. And yes, I think
you
> > may be an asshole about things...but an very bright and well educated
> > asshole and from what I hear a very good diver....albeit somewhat
closed
> > minded, rigid and dogmatic towards those humans you feel are not up to
your
> > personal standards. Finally,You mention an attack.  Hypoglycemia  (LOW
> > blood sugar) will result in coma and death if not dealt with...this is
> > different from a Hyperglycemic attack.  And I am not trying to argue
with
> > YOU at all...I was pointing out the ignorance (please note that what I
> > believe to be Mr. Sallot's ignorance has nothing to do with his
> > intelligence) of Ken Sallot statements and attempting to educate him. 
> > Divers with diabetes can dive and can dive safely, if they stay within
> > their limitations....this may not mean out 18,000' as Your buddy. And
it
> > makes me nervous that you are sugaring your divers in the water...I
think
> > you may be in for a suprise some day. Thank you for your comment.
> > 
> > Tom Mercier    
> > 
> > ----------
> > > From: kirvine@sa*.ne*
> > > To: Tom Mercier <merciert@ti*.co*>
> > > Cc: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*>; cavers@cavers.com
> > > Subject: Re: in all seriousness
> > > Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:56 AM
> > > 
> > > Tom, in WKPP we generally do not allow diabetics to do the dives we
do .
> > > It puts too much risk on all of us. I am the one who made that
decison,
> > > I am the one you can (try) to argue with, not my guys. Diving is not
an
> > > activity that we have to participate in.
> > > 
> > > Diving and medication do not mix. We have seen too many cases of
people
> > > being killed diving on antidepressants, people toxing from various
> > > medications from decongestants to estrogen, and too many
unquantifiable
> > > interactions between medication , gases, and pressure.
> > > 
> > > Why take the chance? Look at what keeps happening to Stone with his
> > > crowd of medicants. I stay nervous enough about sports supplements
> > > without introducing sophisticated drugs into the picture.
> > > 
> > > A huge problem in long exposure diving, which you touched on, is the
> > > hypoglycemic attack ( you mentioned coma ). We are concerned about
that
> > > due to its implication in tox. For that reason, our divers must be
able
> > > to tolerate glucose admisistration in water every 45 minutes once
their
> > > blood sugar first begins to lower - diabetics can not play that game.
> > > 
> > > I am not trying to be an asshole, I am an asshole when it comes to
drugs
> > > and diving, fitness and diving, or preconditions and diving. This is
due
> > > to the hand on the burner experience that I have had with this. I do
> > > however symathize with your condition, and wish I had answers for
that -
> > > I do not, unless you are like my mother, whose diabetes is self
induced
> > > due to eating like a pig, drinking alchohol, and refusing to do any
> > > exercise. Same genes, different results . 
> > > Tom Mercier wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Ken, could you shed some light on your medical training....I think
the
> > key
> > > > word here is 'risk'  not cause, not everyone who is overweight, or
out
> > of
> > > > shape, is at risk of diabetes. Conversely not everyone who is in
shape
> > and
> > > > within weight is free of the risk of diabetes. Diabetics normally
know
> > what
> > > > their blood sugar is thru testing, a simple procedure that can be
done
> > > > predive.  It is the individual who does not know he is diabetic who
is
> > most
> > > > at risk of a sudden hypoglycemic coma.  What makes you think that
the
> > extra
> > > > stresses of decompression have anything to do with diabetes? It is
good
> > > > that the individual you met in Atlanta beat his diabetes thru diet
and
> > > > exercise, many can.  Diabetes does not usually preclude diving,
> > > > decompression diving or extreme environment diving providing the
> > individual
> > > > knows his/her limitations (and if the diabetic individual takes the
> > care of
> > > > predive testing). Much like knowing how long your dive gases will
last.
> > > > Your fear that your diabetic buddy will go into a coma seems to be
> > based on
> > > > ignorance rather than fact.
> > > > 
> > > > Captain Tom Mercier BSc
> > > > Diver Medical Technician Advanced
> > > > Nationally Registered Paramedic
> > > > Hyperbaric Medical Technician
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ----------
> > > > > From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*>
> > > > > To: Bill Cowan <BCowan@pc*.gu*.ne*>
> > > > > Cc: cavers@cavers.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: in all seriousness
> > > > > Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:06 AM
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > Turn off the caps lock before writing email to anyone or you'll
not
> > > > > get much in the way of pleasant responses.
> > > > >
> > > > > Type 2 is adult onset, correct? Usually caused by being
overweight. A
> > > > > quote from www.diabetes.org, "The risk of developing type 2
diabetes
> > > > > increases with age, obesity, and lack of physical activity."
> > > > >
> > > > > The risk is that at some point during the dive a diabetics blood
> > > > > sugar drops to such a point that they go into a diabetic coma.
> > > > > Decompression diving especially puts the diver at risk of this
> > > > > because of the extra stresses on the body (hypothermia, extra
> > > > > exertion, etc).
> > > > >
> > > > > For recreational diving I would say to a non-insulin dependent
> > > > > diabetic they should be ok as long as they get doctors approval
to
> > > > > engage in the activity.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, for decompression diving, overhead environment (cave/wreck),
or
> > > > > deep diving, any diabetic who engages in the activity (insulin
> > > > > dependent or non-insulin dependent) is needlessly putting both
> > > > > himself and his dive buddies at risk. If you're a type 2 diabetic
> > > > > then you need to quit cave diving, period. I know you may not
like
> > > > > this answer, but it's for your own good. If you're insulin
dependent
> > > > > you need to quit diving of any sort.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, there are numerous studies of non-insulin
> > > > > dependent type II diabetics who have beaten the diabetes curse
> > > > > through diet and exercise. I know a guy in Atlanta who a year ago
was
> > > > > diagnosed as a diabetic, and when I saw him at the NACD
conference in
> > > > > November he informed me the doctors couldn't find a trace of
diabetes
> > > > > in him now. He beat it through diet and exercise (although his
diet
> > > > > is a little radical). So, if you're a non-insulin dependent
diabetic,
> > > > > take the weight off and start a regular exercise program. The
only
> > > > > thing holding you back is yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken
> > > > >
> > > > > > From:          "Bill Cowan" <BCowan@pc*.gu*.ne*>
> > > > > > To:            "Ken Sallot" <kens@ac*.ne*>
> > > > > > Subject:       Re: in all seriousness
> > > > > > Date:          Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:56:23 -0600
> > > > >
> > > > > >  I DO NOT KNOW OF THIS INCIDENT, BUT AS A CAVE DIVER WHO IS  A
TYPE
> > 2
> > > > > > DIABETIC, I WAS WONDERING WHAT  DIABETES HAD TO DO WITH HIS
> > APPARENT O2
> > > > TOX.
> > > > > > IF ANYONE HAS ANY GOOD INFO ON DIABETES (TYPE 1 OR 2) AND
DIVING
> > PLEASE
> > > > > > EMAIL ME WITH IT.  THIS SUBJECT IS CURRENTLY UNDER STUDY BY DAN
AND
> > IS
> > > > OF
> > > > > > VERY SPECIAL INTEREST TO ME.
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*>
> > > > > > To: cavers@cavers.com <cavers@cavers.com>
> > > > > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:27 PM
> > > > > > Subject: in all seriousness
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did hear someone toxed at Wakulla yesterday. I have heard
he's
> > > > > > alive, but that's all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know how long he's been a diabetic? The word was
his
> > > > > > diabetes coupled with a head cold (which made him take a bunch
of
> > > > > > sudafed) contributed to his higher then usual susceptability to
> > > > > > oxygen toxicity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you
got
> > > > > > hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got
> > > > > hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse
> > > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got
> hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse
> 

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