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Bill, I said "dives we do". I have no information on what you can or can not do otherwise, I only know that the marathon stuff is not a good idea for a diabletic, although again, this varies. Same for asthma, etc. Seizure disorder is another story - we had one of those who toxed, and that guy later died in another cave. Other medications, like the decongestants are also a problem with high ppo2's, as we keep seeing. Antidepressants are a problem even for recreational shallow diving. Many drugs aare unpredictable in this environment. I can tell you that we have had a lot of problems with this ( drug use of one form or another) over the years, and in the past I required a doctors' signoff on a list of eight conditions. I no longer do that, but my team is not only wanting to reinstate that, they want to go to drug screening for "recreationals". One thing that really keeps this under control is our simple rule that anyone can do any dive that any other two team members will do with them. It is the WKPP version of Rule 405 - "know your dive partner". You konw you, you know what you can and can not do. I agree that being open about this is the best policy. Bill Cowan wrote: > > Seriously though, I do not want their to be any misunderstandings or hard > feelings about my post. If "no diabetics" is your personal rule, I can > respect your decision (not agree with it). My true concern lies with the > fact that many diabetics dive, how many cave divers I don't know, but I > imagine that I am not alone. The WKPP is a "LOUD" voice in the cave diving > community, and I feel that if your members "blacklist" diabetic divers > openly, this could lead to dishonesty between dive partners. No one wishes > to be considered inferior because of a medical condition or any other > reason. I am not advocating that diabetic divers try to covertly join the > WKPP, nor am I advocationg any specific type of diving for diabetics. I am > advocating "DIVING WITHIN YOUR PERSONAL LIMITS". DAN is currently doing > studies on insulin dependant diabetic divers, it will be interesting to see > what they have to say when they complete their studies. Until the final > verdict is in though, I would ask that other cave divers do not ostracize > diabetic divers. "Control" is the key, diabetes (type 1 or 2) does not > preclude an individual from ANY activity! > -----Original Message----- > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > To: Tom Mercier <merciert@ti*.co*> > Cc: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*>; cavers@cavers.com > <cavers@cavers.com> > Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:09 AM > Subject: Re: in all seriousness > > >Tom, in WKPP we generally do not allow diabetics to do the dives we do . > >It puts too much risk on all of us. I am the one who made that decison, > >I am the one you can (try) to argue with, not my guys. Diving is not an > >activity that we have to participate in. > > > >Diving and medication do not mix. We have seen too many cases of people > >being killed diving on antidepressants, people toxing from various > >medications from decongestants to estrogen, and too many unquantifiable > >interactions between medication , gases, and pressure. > > > >Why take the chance? Look at what keeps happening to Stone with his > >crowd of medicants. I stay nervous enough about sports supplements > >without introducing sophisticated drugs into the picture. > > > >A huge problem in long exposure diving, which you touched on, is the > >hypoglycemic attack ( you mentioned coma ). We are concerned about that > >due to its implication in tox. For that reason, our divers must be able > >to tolerate glucose admisistration in water every 45 minutes once their > >blood sugar first begins to lower - diabetics can not play that game. > > > >I am not trying to be an asshole, I am an asshole when it comes to drugs > >and diving, fitness and diving, or preconditions and diving. This is due > >to the hand on the burner experience that I have had with this. I do > >however symathize with your condition, and wish I had answers for that - > >I do not, unless you are like my mother, whose diabetes is self induced > >due to eating like a pig, drinking alchohol, and refusing to do any > >exercise. Same genes, different results . > >Tom Mercier wrote: > >> > >> Ken, could you shed some light on your medical training....I think the > key > >> word here is 'risk' not cause, not everyone who is overweight, or out of > >> shape, is at risk of diabetes. Conversely not everyone who is in shape > and > >> within weight is free of the risk of diabetes. Diabetics normally know > what > >> their blood sugar is thru testing, a simple procedure that can be done > >> predive. It is the individual who does not know he is diabetic who is > most > >> at risk of a sudden hypoglycemic coma. What makes you think that the > extra > >> stresses of decompression have anything to do with diabetes? It is good > >> that the individual you met in Atlanta beat his diabetes thru diet and > >> exercise, many can. Diabetes does not usually preclude diving, > >> decompression diving or extreme environment diving providing the > individual > >> knows his/her limitations (and if the diabetic individual takes the care > of > >> predive testing). Much like knowing how long your dive gases will last. > >> Your fear that your diabetic buddy will go into a coma seems to be based > on > >> ignorance rather than fact. > >> > >> Captain Tom Mercier BSc > >> Diver Medical Technician Advanced > >> Nationally Registered Paramedic > >> Hyperbaric Medical Technician > >> > >> > >> > >> ---------- > >> > From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*> > >> > To: Bill Cowan <BCowan@pc*.gu*.ne*> > >> > Cc: cavers@cavers.com > >> > Subject: Re: in all seriousness > >> > Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:06 AM > >> > > >> > Bill, > >> > > >> > Turn off the caps lock before writing email to anyone or you'll not > >> > get much in the way of pleasant responses. > >> > > >> > Type 2 is adult onset, correct? Usually caused by being overweight. A > >> > quote from www.diabetes.org, "The risk of developing type 2 diabetes > >> > increases with age, obesity, and lack of physical activity." > >> > > >> > The risk is that at some point during the dive a diabetics blood > >> > sugar drops to such a point that they go into a diabetic coma. > >> > Decompression diving especially puts the diver at risk of this > >> > because of the extra stresses on the body (hypothermia, extra > >> > exertion, etc). > >> > > >> > For recreational diving I would say to a non-insulin dependent > >> > diabetic they should be ok as long as they get doctors approval to > >> > engage in the activity. > >> > > >> > But, for decompression diving, overhead environment (cave/wreck), or > >> > deep diving, any diabetic who engages in the activity (insulin > >> > dependent or non-insulin dependent) is needlessly putting both > >> > himself and his dive buddies at risk. If you're a type 2 diabetic > >> > then you need to quit cave diving, period. I know you may not like > >> > this answer, but it's for your own good. If you're insulin dependent > >> > you need to quit diving of any sort. > >> > > >> > On the other hand, there are numerous studies of non-insulin > >> > dependent type II diabetics who have beaten the diabetes curse > >> > through diet and exercise. I know a guy in Atlanta who a year ago was > >> > diagnosed as a diabetic, and when I saw him at the NACD conference in > >> > November he informed me the doctors couldn't find a trace of diabetes > >> > in him now. He beat it through diet and exercise (although his diet > >> > is a little radical). So, if you're a non-insulin dependent diabetic, > >> > take the weight off and start a regular exercise program. The only > >> > thing holding you back is yourself. > >> > > >> > Ken > >> > > >> > > From: "Bill Cowan" <BCowan@pc*.gu*.ne*> > >> > > To: "Ken Sallot" <kens@ac*.ne*> > >> > > Subject: Re: in all seriousness > >> > > Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:56:23 -0600 > >> > > >> > > I DO NOT KNOW OF THIS INCIDENT, BUT AS A CAVE DIVER WHO IS A TYPE 2 > >> > > DIABETIC, I WAS WONDERING WHAT DIABETES HAD TO DO WITH HIS APPARENT > O2 > >> TOX. > >> > > IF ANYONE HAS ANY GOOD INFO ON DIABETES (TYPE 1 OR 2) AND DIVING > PLEASE > >> > > EMAIL ME WITH IT. THIS SUBJECT IS CURRENTLY UNDER STUDY BY DAN AND > IS > >> OF > >> > > VERY SPECIAL INTEREST TO ME. > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*> > >> > > To: cavers@cavers.com <cavers@cavers.com> > >> > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:27 PM > >> > > Subject: in all seriousness > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I did hear someone toxed at Wakulla yesterday. I have heard he's > >> > > alive, but that's all. > >> > > > >> > > Does anyone know how long he's been a diabetic? The word was his > >> > > diabetes coupled with a head cold (which made him take a bunch of > >> > > sudafed) contributed to his higher then usual susceptability to > >> > > oxygen toxicity. > >> > > > >> > > Ken > >> > > "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got > >> > > hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got > >> > hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse > >> > > >
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